Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator | Lex Fridman Podcast #364

A crazy thing in the kidnap business We used to get asked by FBI leadership When is this going to be over And the answer would be when the bad Guys feel like they've gotten everything They can now dissecting that statement You're talking about when they feel Like they got everything they can so the Key to kidnapping negotiations are the Feelings of the bad guys we're talking About feelings kidnappers feelings Which drives everything doesn't matter What human endeavor it is The following is a conversation with Chris Voss former FBI hostage and crisis Negotiator and author of never split the Difference negotiating as if your life Depended on it This is a Lex Friedman podcast to Support it please check out our sponsors In the description and now dear friends Here's Chris Voss What is it like negotiating for a Hostage with a kidnapper what is the Toughest part of that process The toughest part is if it looks bad From the beginning And you gotta engage in a process anyway What are the factors that make it bad Well that that makes you nervous that if You're an observer situation where There's General negotiation or it's a Hostage negotiation What makes you think that this is going

To be difficult If they want to make it look like They're negotiating but they're not like In a 2004 time frame Um Al Qaeda in Iraq was executing people On camera for the publicity And they wanted to make it look like They were negotiating So they'd come on and they say if you Don't get all the women out of Iraqi Women out of the the jails in Iraq in 72 Hours we're going to kill a hostage That was one of the demands in one of The cases in that time frame Now first of all even if we'd have been Willing the US government Coalition Would have been willing to do that it Wouldn't be able to happen in 72 hours So is it an impossible ask from the Beginning And so then then that looks really bad Like they're they're trying to make it They're trying to make it look like They're talking reasonably and but They're not so your hostage is in bad Shape there if they've made a demand That you just even if you wanted to do You couldn't do so then what makes that Very difficult is in kidnappings Especially You're working with family members You're coaching people Bad guys are in touch with family Members or if they're not directly in

Touch with family members the other Thing that Al Qaeda was doing at that Time was they didn't give us a way to Talk to them they make they're making Statements in the media But then not leaving their phone number If you will yeah so that's one more Thing like they're intentionally Blocking you they're asking you to do Something you can't do They're not giving you a way to talk to Them So you gotta get with the family and Discuss with the family how you can Approach things now the family Definitely wants to know is this going To help there's a bunch of cases like That in that time frame And you got to be honest with them it's A long shot our chances here are slim And none and when it's slim and none It'll take slim but it's still very very Slim And there were a number of people that Were killed in that time frame before The tide finally got turned and it was It was hard dealing with the families at The time can you negotiate in public Versus like a direct channel in private Oh yeah bad guys pick the media They're making statements in the media So and that's a big clue they're they're Chant their channel of choice Tells you an awful lot and if they're

Choosing the media then that means There's people are trying to appeal to That means in their view there's such a Thing as good media so if there's good Media there's bad media how do you make It bad and we made it bad for them it Just unfortunately it had to go through A number of iterations before they got The message and quit In that negotiation do you Think about the value of human life is There a Dollar figure is there how do You uh enumerate not enumerate quantify The value of human life yeah that's uh It's like Beauty Cindy had a beholder So that was the first lesson on any Hostage negotiation really any Negotiation like it doesn't matter what It is to you matters what it is to the Other side one of the things especially In your in your conversation I listened To with that Andrew Um by the way you guys uh I I another Thing I really liked about that Conversation first of all I think the World of him Andrew huberman yeah Andrew Ewan and uh You released it on my Birthday I appreciate that that was a Nice birthday perfectly just for you Yeah yeah nice job thank you But uh empathy is in the eye of the Beholder uh in every negotiation whether It's over car a house Collaboration in your company with the

Bad guys how does the other side see it Now the nice thing about kidnapping for Ransom if they're if there's an actual Ransom demand it's an actual demand Is it's a mercenary's business they're Gonna take what they could get and they Tend to be really good At figuring out how much money somebody Has so And again I'll keep drawing business Analogies You're looking for a job with an Employer There's a market price of the job And then there's what the employer can Pay you Now maybe the market price of the job Market's 150 Grand employer can pay 120. But it's a great job you know we're Talking about Elon uh a minute ago Like I'd work minimum wage to follow him Around yeah you know that would be worth It what are the value other than the Dollars and how hard is it to get the Dollars and how quickly can you get to Them Those these are all things that the bad Guys are good and kidnapping are good at Figuring out so The value of human life to them is going To be what can they get a crazy thing in The kidnap business We used to get asked by FBI leadership When is this going to be over

NES would be when the bad guys feel like They've gotten everything they can now Dissecting that statement You're talking about when they feel Like they got everything they can so the Key to kidnapping negotiations are the Feelings of the bad guys we're talking About feelings kidnappers feelings Which drives everything doesn't matter What human endeavor it is So it's not reason it's emotion There's no such thing as reason I should say for a little bit of context I just talked uh yesterday with a guy Named Sam Harris yeah I don't know if You know Sam but Sam and because I Was Preparing for a conversation with you I Talked to him about empathy versus Reason and he lands heavily on reason Yeah empathy is uh somewhere between Useless and erroneous and leaves you Astray and is not effective that reason Is the only way uh forward well it's Draw some fine lines there and the Two Fine Lines I would draw is uh first what Is your definition of empathy and then Secondly Uh how do people actually make up their Minds and I'm and I'm going to flip it I'm going to go with how people make up Their minds you make up your mind based On what you care about Period That makes

Reason emotion based What do you care about you start with What you care about you see some guy Swimming out in off the coast of the Ocean and you see a shark coming up Behind him Who are you cheering for If it's Adolf Hitler out there you're Cheering for the shark you might Actually feel bad for shark because it's Gonna it's gonna taste bad Who do you care about you mean the human Will taste bad yeah you you know if he Eats Adolf Hitler you know they're gonna Leave a bad taste in your mouth even if You're a shark So you're making up your mind on every Circumstance it's based on what you care About yeah so then what does that do to Reason your reason is based on what you Care about from the beginning Now then empathy If you define it as sympathy which it Was never meant to be sympathy ever You know I uh Etymology I think is the word I keep Getting etymology and entomology mixed Up etymology being right the the where Words came from the origin entomology Being bugs I got it right so I like etymology where did something Come from also like entomology anyway uh Etymology the orig my understanding from

My research Uh the original definition of empathy Was an interpretation of a German Ward Where people were trying to figure out What the artist was trying to convey it Was about assessing art And so it was always about understanding Where somebody was coming from but not Sharing necessarily The same thing So then when I was with the FBI and I First started collaborating with Harvard Bob manukan wrote a book Beyond winning second chapters the Tension between empathy and Assertiveness Still the best chapter on empathy I've Ever read anywhere And Bob wrightson's book Bob was the Head of the program on negotiation he's Also agreed to be interviewed for a Documentary uh that about me and my Company That hasn't been released yet but it Should be released sometime this year What's the name of the documentary Tactical empathy good name So Bob's definition of empathy and said Not agreeing Or even liking the other side Don't even gotta like them don't gotta Agree with them just straight Understanding where they're coming from And articulating it which requires no

Agreement whatsoever That becomes a very powerful tool like Ridiculously powerful and if it if Sympathy or Compassion or agreement are Not included you can be empathic with Anybody I was thinking about this uh When I was getting ready to sit down and Talk to you because you use the word Empathy a lot Um potent I can be empathic with Putin easy it's Easy I don't agree with where he's coming From I don't uh agree with this Methodology Early on the Ukraine Russian war I saw an article that was very Dismissive of Russia That said Russia is basically Europe's Gas station And I thought all right So if you're in charge And the way you feed your people Is via an industry that the entire world Is trying to quit The whole world is trying to get out of Fossil fuels but that's how you feed Your people if you don't come up with an Answer to that the people that you've Taken the responsibility for are going To die alone in the colds in the dark They're going to freeze and they're Gonna die All right so that doesn't mean that I

Agree with where it's coming from or any Of his means But where where is how does this guy see Things in his distorted word You're never going to get through to Somebody like that in a conversation Unless you can demonstrate to them you Understand where they're coming from Whether or not you agree Early 90s last century I'm a last Century guy I'm an old dude I refer to myself as a last century guy Also a deeply flawed human yeah So Um Tara's case New York City Civilian Court terrorism does not have To be tried in military tribunals that's A very bad idea it was always bad The FBI was always against it I'm getting ready we have Muslims Testifying in open court against the Legitimate Muslim cleric The guy that was on trial Had the credentials as a legitimate Muslim cleric the people who were Testifying against them Didn't think you should be advocating Murder of innocent people We'd sit down with them Arab Muslims Egyptians mostly And I would say to them You believe that there's been a Succession of American governments for

The last 200 years that are anti-islamic And they'd shake their head and go Yeah And that be the start of the Conversation that's empathy You believe this to be the case I never Said I agreed I never said I disagreed But I showed him that I wasn't afraid of Their beliefs I was so unafraid of them That I was willing to just State them And not disagree or contradict because I I would say that and then I'd shut up And let him react and I never had to say Here's why you're wrong I never gave my Point of view Every single one of them that testified That's empathy not agreeing with where The other side is coming from Now I'm not sure how Sam would define it But common vernacular is its sympathy And its compassion and that's when it Becomes useless And there is a gray area maybe you can Comment on it is sometimes a drop of Compassion Helps make that empathy more effective In the conversation So you're just saying you believe X Doesn't quite form a strong of a bond With the other person You're imagining it doesn't maybe you're Right yes I'm imagining it doesn't I'm Imagining you need to show that you're

On the same side That you're but you you need to Signal a Little bit about your actual beliefs at Least in that moment even if those that Signaling is a is uh Not as deep as it sounds but at first You know basically petting the person on The back and saying we're on the same Side brother you know that's that's what Most people When they're really learning the concept That's the basic human reaction yeah and In application especially in highly Adversarial situations Like I I need I need a regular guy Muslim but How's that guy gonna say buy it if I Like you know do it I'm on your side I've been there I feel you no no no no No People get conned by that so much like If we're on opposite sides of the table And I try to act like I'm not on the Opposite side of the table that makes me Disingenuous So I would rather Be honest my you know my currency is Integrity And at some point in time if you go like You know where I'm coming from my answer Is going to be like look I can agree on maybe where we're going But if we're talking about you know am I

On your side now as a human being I want To see you survive and thrive not at my Expense I think the world is full of opportunity I'm optimistic and again more than Enough reason for saying that Is enough for you for both of us So I got no problem with you getting Yours You know just don't take it out of my Head and I'm going to be honest about it About both of those things I'm not Interested in you taking it out of my Hide I think there's plenty here for Both of us now I don't I don't need to Be on your side except in a in a human Sense but I don't do I have to side with You of the war no or The Howard Distributing the stock or how Much you get paid or how much you make Off this car I think people my experience as a Layman Um is that empathy is not got a downside That you don't you don't need me To act like I'm on your side for us to Make a great deal Great deal well we'll talk about two Things a great deal and a great Conversation right they're usually They're often going to be the same thing But at times they're going to be Different that's a you mentioned Vladimir Putin there is some zoom level At which you do want to say we're on the

Same side you said the human level it's Possible to say kind of zoom out And say that we're all in this together Not we Slavic people we Europeans we but We human beings we're on the same Planet Same planet right Several years ago and his name is Evidently been mud now Um but he was very nice to me a lawyer Here in town named Tom Girardi and no Shortage of bad reporting on him now I Have absolutely no idea if any of it's True I do know that in my interaction With him he was always a gentleman to me And was very generous Um when he'd get into conversations with People he'd always say like you know Let's look at 10 years from now Where we could both be in a phenomenal Place together Now let's work our way back from there That's a good line yeah and then you Know I saw him do it in simulations he I Was teaching the USC We are to function together And a Gentleman uh at that time told me That that who he was and it was really Influential so I walked up to the guy Cold and I said hey you know I'm gonna Come in and talking to my class at USC He didn't know me other than the fact That we had mutual acquaintance and he Graciously consented to come in And he said what do you want me to talk

About I said look dude just from your Success here it doesn't matter what you Talk about You know either I'm going to agree or I'm going to disagree or I'm going to Learn from it my students are going to Learn from it so students want to role Play with them you know they dispute and Let's do a negotiation every single time You go to pick a point in the future Where we're both happy 10 years 20 years from now and let's Work our way back not a hostage Negotiator same thing I call into a bank Bad guy picks up on the picks up on the Phone And I'm gonna say I want you to live You know I want to see you survive this You know whatever else goes with that Let's pick a point in the future that We're both good with And then we work our way back and people Make also Um we're talking before about emotion And what you care about People make their decisions based on Their vision of the future Like without question yeah uh there's a I think there's a Hindu temple in the United States Being a has been or being assembled same Way that the Hindu temples were in India A Thousand Years Ago by hand volunteers

By hand That these people are knocking Themselves out for a place in Paradise a Vision of the future what you will go Through today if the future Portends uh what you want you you'll go Through incredible things today so it's A vision of the future So you have to try to paint a a vision Of the future that the uh the person You're negotiating with will like Just tough to do let's find out what Their vision of the future is and then Remove yourself as a threat sure you Know if we can collaborate together At all if you think that I could do Anything at all to help you To that point and you know Integrity is My currency I'm not gonna lie to you which gets back Before that I lied to you about whether Or not I'm on your side you know right Now not at the moment we're on opposite Size defense That's not going to stop us from being Together in the future Inside you're going to say wow well you Didn't lie to me about today maybe you Won't lie to me about tomorrow So going back to world leaders for Example whether it's uh Vladimir Zolenski or Vladimir Putin you don't Think it closes off their mind to show That

You have a different opinion Depending upon when you showed it is That is are you arguing from the Beginning or are you displaying Understanding from the beginning I don't Think it stops you from being Adversarial that was a thing about Um Uh manukins A chapter in his book the tension Between empathy and assertiveness I remember reading that reading that uh Name of the chapter thinking like ah you Know In my business there is no tension And then I got into it and I read I Thought this is a red herring He's drawing people in because his Entire chapter is that empathy puts you In a position to assert And that there is no tension it's a Sequencing issue And that's why again I think it's it was Written for lawyers yeah sequencing Issue so timing is everything so you Emphasize the importance of in terms of Sequencing and priority uh of listening Of truly listening to the other person I'm sorry what'd you say that was a bad Joke Your timing is just perfect how do you How do you listen How do you truly listen to another human Being how do you notice them how do you

Really hear them I always hated the term active listening If anything it's proactive And as soon as you start to trying to Anticipate where somebody's going you're Dialed in more Um because along the way Either you're congratulating yourself For being right Or when suddenly they say something that Surprises you you really notice it like That's not what I expected You're dialed in you're listening so It's it's Proactive and then One of the reasons You know we name the book tactical Empathy Um name the name of the book never split The difference but we're talking about Tactical empathy Uh calibrated emotional intelligence What's calibrated by first it was Experiences hostage negotiators but and We've come to find out that our Experience is hostage negotiators Is backed up by Neuroscience another Reason why I listened to Andrew Huberman's podcast all the time heavy Heavy heavy heavy on the neuroscience And so then emotional intelligence Calibrated by what we know about Neuroscience what do we know about Neuroscience and I'll talk about it from

A Layman's perspective and and to even Say wheeze is an arrogant thing you know Human beings I I didn't do the research I'm scooping up as much of it as I can As a Layman The brain's largely negative I think there's ample evidence people Would argue with you as to what the Wiring is and what does what And the limbic system and all of that But The brain is basically 75 negative it's An alignment I make that contention Number one number two The best way to deactivate negativity is By calling it out And I could say look I don't I don't Want you to be offended by what I'm Getting ready to say That's a denial your guard is up you're Getting ready to get mad If I say what I'm getting ready to say Is probably going to offend you Now you relax a little bit And you go all right what is it and then I say it whatever it is and you're going To be like oh that wasn't that bad Because We knew from hostage negotiation by Calling out the negativity deactivated And then number of Neuroscience Experiments have been done right and Left by calling out negativity Deactivating the negativity

Calling out ahead of time so like Acknowledging that this is The this is go ahead of time that this Is going to hurt The experiments that I've seen Um have been when the negativity was Inflicted and then having a person that Was being inflicted upon simply identify It just identify yeah what are you Feeling I'm angry and the anger goes Away It's tough because I've had a few and Again we're dancing between things but I've had a few conversations where anger Arose in the guests I spoke with Yeah and I'm not sure Identifying it That that that's like leaning into it And going into the depths Because That's going to the depths of some Emotional Psychological thing they're going Through that I'm not sure I want to Explore that Iceberg with a little ship We got I Um it's a you have to decide do you want To avoid it Or do you want to lean into it it's a Tough choice it's the elephant in a room It is an alpha in the room it is an Outfit especially when I think that's The big difference between conversations And negotiations negotiation ultimately

Who is looking for closure and Resolution I think General conversations Like this Is more exploring There's not necessarily a goal Like if you were to put like if I had to Put a goal for this conversation there's No real goal it's curiously exploring Ideas So that'll gives you freedom to not call Out the elephant For for time you could be like all right Let's go to the Next Room get a snack And come back to the elephant right All right so I I'd make a tiny Adjustment on the negotiation definition Sure because you said I think um Seeking closure Um You use two words enclosure was one of Them goals maybe another well yeah what Is what is negotiation well I would say Seeking collaboration And because closure kind of puts a Little bit of a finality to it a real Problem in any negotiations always Implementation That's why we say yeses I say we yes There's nothing without how And and yes and it's at its very best It's only temporary aspiration it's Aspirational it's usually counterfeit So if you're looking for yeah that's a Good lie yes it's usually a counterfeit

It's aspirational without the how yeah It's just a good line yeah thank you and We're working on it I was practicing I In front of the mirror 14. pretty good You got a bright future I think You should write a book or something Okay Yeah [Laughter] Uh your book is uh excellent by the way Thanks appreciate that what am I doing Here anyway this and Earth is on you With you I don't know I'm collaborating Why me though why why'd you why'd you Want to talk to me I've heard you speak In a few places I was like this this is A fascinating human Um I think on clubhouse and different Places then I'll listen to some YouTube Stuff and this is Just you've meet people that are Interesting that's that's what I love Doing with this podcast is just Exploring the mind of an interesting Person You notice people sometimes you Sometimes as like a homeless person That's outside of 7-Eleven I notice who Are you yeah yeah yeah it's fascinating It doesn't like I don't look at the Resumes and the credentials and stuff Like that it's just being able to notice A person because I've been leafing

Through the different choices of the Podcast sure the uh the young lady that Um only fans and the sex workers that's A fascinating human being like I want to Know what makes that person Tech a Thousand percent if that's anything About her is her world view is almost Entirely different than mine and that's Always interesting to talk to a person Who just is happy Flourishing but sees the world and the Set of values she has is completely Different And and is also not argumentative is Accepting of other World Views it's Beautiful to explore that yeah no Kidding I would agree and then yeah Thought provoking because I consider Myself Um Uh the word I was looking for before is Abundant I think it's an abundant world So I'm pretty optimistic I consider myself I don't know happy Exactly describes it but yeah you know I'm so then if I'm happy optimistic Abundant I got a world view and then you Run into somebody that has a vastly Different world view and they're happy And and they think it's abundant too And you're like what is going on in your Head or mine or what am I missing huh Yes that's fascinating and the pie grows Which is useful for kind of negotiation

When you paint a picture of a future if You're optimistic about that feature Does it kind of feeling like we're both Going to win here exactly and that's Easy we live in a world where both People can win yeah and and in point of Fact that's the case although it's a lot Of people want us to think otherwise Mostly because of the negativity that I Was talking about before so the brain is Generally cynical yeah my description of It is The pessimistic caveman survived and We're descendants of the pessimists yeah You're optimistic yeah I got eaten by a Saber-toothed tiger Yeah but on the flip side the Optimus Seem to be the ones that actually build Stuff these days there's the switch like So at what point in time do we catch on Because the difference between survival And success mindset The success mindset is highly optimistic So where do we switch or how do we stay Switched from survival to success that's The challenge Yeah somewhere we stopped being eaten by Saber-toothed tigers and started Building bridges and buildings and Computers and companies and we started To experience we got enough data back To collaborate And we stopped listening to our amygdala And we started listening to our gut

Let me just to return briefly to Terrorists uh what do you think about The policy of not negotiating with Terrorists well that's not the policy First of all Now everybody thinks that's the policy Yeah it hasn't been in the policy since 2002 when Bush 43 signed a National Security Presidential Directive nspd the Time it was nspd12 Which basically said Um we won't make concessions that Doesn't mean we won't talk So I'm in Colombia at the same time and I have been intimately involved with the Signing of him signing that document I knew exactly what it said and I and he Didn't inherit it from somebody else he Signed And I'm in Colombia And the number two in the embassy says Last night on TV the president of the United States said we don't negotiate With terrorists are you calling a President United States a liar And I remember thinking like all right So He probably said that and that's not on The document that he signed So I said look it you know I'm familiar with what he's signed and It that's not what it says well you know And so the argument but that's always Been the sound bite that everybody likes

We don't negotiate with terrorists Depends upon your definition of Negotiation if it's just communication We negotiate with them all the time Number one number two Like every president has made some Bone-headed deal with the bad guys Like Obama released five high-level Taliban leaders from Guantanamo in Exchange for an AWOL soldier that we Immediately threw in jail And I thought that was a horrible deal And that would that's putting terrorists Back on a Battlefield And then Trump turned around and topped It by putting 5 000 tariffs back on the Battlefield So we haven't had a president that stick Has stuck to that on either side of the Aisle since people started throwing that Out as a sound bike what do you think of That negotiation forget terrorists but The global negotiation like with with Vladimir Putin the recent negotiation Over prisoners The Exchange the breeding Gardener is There a way to do that negotiation Successfully first of all I agree with The idea that she was wrongfully Detained and that she had and she didn't Deserve to be in jail and That US Government there should be no Second-class citizens ever and whether You're an a WNBA player or you're just

Some bonehead that walked into the wrong Situation your government should not Abandon you ever ever Now what they do Um in the meantime There should have been a negotiation They were desperate to make a deal at a Bad time they'd been offered far better Deals than prisoner swaps earlier and Turned them down And then he gets turned up and thank God For Brittany Griner that um the public Got enough attention they kept pressure On the administration they made a deal Now governments want to make those kind Of deals that's fine as long as it Because that was basically a political Negotiation you're putting five thousand Taliban back on a Battlefield That ain't negotiating with another Government you're putting five of them Back on a battlefield that ain't Negotiating with another government That's directly contradicting this thing That you claimed and those were all bad Deals now was it Brittany grinder thing A bad deal I think it was great for her If I was in the middle of it would have Been better And she still would have come home yeah There's some technical aspects of that Negotiation what do you think is the Value just the link on it of meeting in Person for the negotiation I think it's

A great idea can I just just follow that Tangent along there's a war in Ukraine Now it's been going on over a year It's uh for me personally giving my life Uh stories is is a is a deeply personal One and I'm Returning back to that area of the world That was there Uh Vladimir zielinski said he doesn't Want to talk to uh to Vladimir Putin Do you think they could get in a room Together And uh Say you were there in a room with Putin And zelenski and Biden is uh sitting in The back drinking a cocktail or maybe he Is at the table participating how how is It possible through negotiation through The art of conversation to find peace in This very tense geopolitical Uh conflict I think it's eminently possible I think The getting people together in person Has always been a good idea now how many Times who's getting them together under What circumstances and how many times You get them together The um The documentary the human factor about The Mideast peace negotiations mostly Through the 90s mostly under the Clinton Administration Got kicked off uh under Bush 41. And then the documentary continues

Through Trump But just touching basically on it but They're getting air fat and and the Different Israeli Prime Ministers together in Person And these guys do not want to talk to Each other and depend upon the prime Minister You know the the mere thought of being On the same planet with Arafat was Offensive And they started getting these guys Together in person regularly and they Started seeing each other's human beings And they started realizing that there Was enough room on the planet for them And that people dying Was stupid And they were and they would slowly work Things out by getting these guys Together in person So how long does it take who's hosting It But it's a good idea but the skill of Uh achieving that thing that you talk About a lot which is empathy and I would Say in that case not just empathy but Empathy plus a bit you might disagree With this but a drop of compassion in There but I think compassion compassion Is helpful Um but it's not essential Like if you just know where I'm coming

From Like it it the thought the feeling of Being Understood yeah pardon understood that's Powerful is yeah and and again I know I Picked the vast majority of this up on On Andrews Um podcast but it picked it up in other Places because early on When we were putting a book together a Tall Roz uh the writer uh my son Uncredited co-author so the books really Uh collaboration between me my son Brandon and Tall Ross And we're driving for that's right you Know when somebody feels like what You've said is completely their position They say that's right Now you're right but that's right So tall says you know I think I think What's Happening Here is you're Triggering a subtle Epiphany in somebody So I'm like all right I'll buy that so I Start looking up the Neuroscience of the Feeling of epiphany Getting ahead of Oxytocin and serotonin Oxytocin is a bonding drug You bond to me to you when you feel Completely understood by me you bond to Me Then in one of the relationship podcasts That I'm listening to on on Andrew Um it says oxytocin inclines people to

Tell the truth You're more honest all right so you feel Deeply understood by me you bond to me And you start getting more honest with Me Serotonin The neurochemical satisfaction Epiphany you feel oxytocin and serotonin Being understood all right I got you Bonding to me I got you being more Honest with me and I got you feeling More satisfied so you want less What more do you want out of a Negotiation Of course there's already with uh Leaders and great negotiators there's a Walls built up defense mechanisms Against that right there's you're Resisting you're resisting this basic Chemistry but yes you should have that Um you should work towards that kind of Empathy And I I personally believe I I don't Actually understand why but I've Observer time and time again but getting In a room together And really talking whether privately or Publicly but really talking Uh and like this so I'll I'll comment on This so right now this is being recorded And a few folks will hear this but when You really do a good job of this kind of Conversation you forget there's cameras Right and that's much better than there

Being even a third person in the room But often when um world leaders meet Those like press or there's others in The room like as you know man-to-man or Man to woman you have to like meet like In like in a saloon just the two of you And talk there's some intimacy and power To that to achieve the the if you're Also willing to couple that with empathy To really hear the other person yeah Yeah I don't know what that is that's Like a deep deep intimacy that happens And I think there's actually Because we get access in a Black Swan Group all the time like how do you you Know Zoom that's bad you know because You don't have the same visual feedback On zoom and that's not true like you and I I see you from the waist up right now If we're on Zoom I'd be looking at you From the waist up I'm not wearing pants Yeah For the internet I apologize for that Sorry yeah yeah yeah you only see a Small portion Usually that's usually where I go but uh Anyway I'm glad we both have ridiculous I Appreciate it But what makes this different in person I I actually think Um I think there's energy That we're unable we don't have the Instrumentation to Define yet

And I think that there's a feel I think There's an actual energetic feel that Changes and just because we don't we Again just because we can't Measure it Doesn't mean it's not there Yeah I would love to figure out what That is uh folks that are working on Virtual reality are trying to figure out That what that is during the pandemic Everybody was on Zoom zoom and Microsoft Everybody was trying to figure out how Do we replicate that I'm trying to Understand how to replicate that because It sure is not fun to travel across the World just to talk to Snowden or Putin Or zelenski I'd love to do it over Zoom It's not the same it's not the same no It's not the same I'd go in a room with Putin you would go I would yeah a thousand percent I get it that's right Adam That's right Well first you would give him a that's Right probably ah getting a given us to See see that and here's the issue that Trips everybody up in negotiation the Difference between hearing and speaking The same words are vastly different And what I'm looking for is what I'm the Responses I'm getting out of you Because if you if you can't first that's Right especially like if you can't Appreciate what that really means

Hearing it is unsatisfying so those two Words are really important to you talk About this in your book what is why is That so what does that's right mean why Is it important well it means that what You just heard you think is Unequivocably the truth Like it's dead on it hit the target it's It's a bullseye And it's been a topic of discussion Especially between my son and I a lot Like what happens The oxytocin bonding moment And he his contention has always been Like Donald Trump is the poster child of What it means because Donald Trump's been addressing an Audience you know he's he's in a debate With Hillary or he's given a speech Someplace And when the people that are devoted to Him When they believe that he what he's just Said is completely right it's insightful They look at him or they look at the TV And they go that's right And it's a it's what people say when They're bought into what they just heard Now if you're not convinced of the way That Donald Trump's followers are bonded To him And he he also just like this in my view Destroys the idea of common ground Because when he first started to run for

President the pundits All said eyes a New Yorker Nobody in the Republican party is going To like him it's Middle America you know It's blue collar you know it's regular Common folks Factory workers Then I gotta like Trump because he's From New York and he went to Ward and He's an Ivy Leaguer and he's a son of a Wealthy Real Estate Mogul and he had a Million dollars handed to him when he Got out of college He you know he's born with a silver Spruce spoon in his mouth the rank and Five Republicans and never gonna accept This guy Based on common ground Look how look how smart that was do you Think he's a good negotiator do you Think Donald Trump is a good negotiator Uh no I think he's a great marketer If you look at his negotiation track Record all right so I started following Donald Trump in the 80s when I was in New York I'm a last century guy he's the Last century guy we've got mutual Acquaintances The minister that married him to milor Maples was a friend of mine in a close Friend of mine and in 1998 I threw a Fundraiser in his apartment a Trump Tower that he attended

So Um no shortage of mutual friends we went To the same church Still have mutual mutual acquaintances Friends I don't know and watched his track Record negotiation history Which is exactly his track record with North Korea where are we with North Korea what was the deal that he made With North Korea See your answer is the same as everybody Else's Well I remember it started out with a Lot of fanfare yeah but I don't know What happened because nothing ever Happens as more public Fanfare so Marketing minded presentation with a Bang if he doesn't cut the deal in a Short period a really short period of Time he moves on And everybody wonders what had happened Because it was so much fanfare at the Beginning now At the beginning him even opening that Dialogue with North Korea was masterful Like I was I was such a fan when you got A president of the United States That is willing to sit down and talk With the leader of another Nation when Every other president all our advisors Are saying the leader of North Korea is Beneath you you cannot dignify him by Responding to him directly and

Consequently The Trump Administration inherits a can Of worms That has been simmering for 30 years He didn't get us into that and he and he Opened up a dialogue where nobody else Was capable of opening a dialogue and it Just went away Nobody knows what happened And there was no deal made Now great negotiators make deals What do you think about these Accusations that he's a narcissist If you're a narcissist does that help You or hurt you Is there a more popular term these days Than narcissist ever like everybody's a Narcissist everybody you don't like is a Narcissist like the homeless guy Down on The Corner he's a narcissist that's why He's there Yeah it's lost meaning for you a little Bit Yeah and first of all most Psychological terms As a hostage negotiator and really we Were never into psychology And we steered away from because Psychology is at best is soft science If it's not informed these days if it's Not informed by Real studies or Um Neuroscience the guys that I'm impressed With these days psychologists

Neuroscientists now I wanna I'm I'm Interested in that that that guy or gal But then psychology convention do you Get them all together and they all agree But also the interesting thing about Psychology is each individual person Is way more complicated than the Category psychology tries to create and There's something about the human brain The moment you classify somebody as a Narcissist or depressed or bipolar Or insane in any kind of way for some Reason you don't use you give yourself a Convenient excuse not to see them as a Complicated human being to empathize With them I had that when I was talking To I did an interview with Kanye West And then there's a lot of popular Opinions about Um him being mentally unwell and so on Right and I felt that that kind of way Of thinking is a very convenient way of Thinking to ignore the fact that he's a Human being That again wants to be understood and Heard And that's the only way you can have That conversation Yeah I agree completely that's right I feel so close to you now Am I because I'm not wearing pants All right so uh you're funnier than I am It bothers me all right I'll say something stupid soon enough

Don't worry about it uh but he said now We were talking about uh terrorists and Non-negotiating with terrorists uh is There something nice job going all the Way back to where that rabbit hole Started there's where rabbit where Alice In Wonderland right now the the is there Something about walking away Of not negotiating is that is there Power in that all right so it depends Upon whether or not yeah You're doing it with Integrity or a Tactic to start with Um and then also Uh hostage negotiators are successful 93 Of the time Kind of across the board Which means that there's seven percent Of the time is going to go bad And that was my old boss Gary nessner I Learned so much from Gary But one of the phrase that he used over And over and over again until I finally Worked the case and went bad was this is Going to be the best chance of success Best chance of success and then Something went bad and I remember Thinking like well best chance of Success it's no guarantee of success So your question is are there Negotiations you should walk away from If you got no shot at success then then Don't negotiate And there you have to accept the fact

That some deals you never you're never Going to make you know we teach you my Company it's not a sin to not get the Deal it's a sin to take a long time to Not get the deal And you know Gary in His Infinite Wisdom You know they they realized that there Was something called suicide by Cobb And that it might have Gary was very Much into clusters of behavior he kept Us away from psychological terms and There would be clusters of behavior that Would be high risk indicators and he and He wrote a block of instruction called High risk indicators Which meant if you start seeing this Stuff show up this thing's probably Going bad and you're going to need to You're going to need to recognize that From the very beginning and adjust Accordingly and it's the same way in in Business and personal life I'm talking To the head of a a marketing company I Have tremendous respect for I admire That what this guy in this company does Started from scratch He borrowed space in the back of a Drugstore To start his company And now it's usually successful and he's Laying out to me That he finally had to confront Um a potential client And walk away from

Him and he said how do you think I Handle this and my answer was thousand Percent correct and as a matter of fact The behavior that he indicated he's a Type And you should have walked away sooner Than you did Because this guy was playing here the Whole time Al Qaeda 2004 they're playing Us they're not negotiating We need we called them out on it I don't think you're negotiating You wouldn't say it exactly like that But that was that was absolutely the Approach You know confront people on their Behavior in a respectful way And signal that you're willing to walk Away and mean it a thousand percent and Mean it isn't that terrifying I mean It's scary because you don't want to Really walk away or do you have to Really want to walk away well yeah this This gets core values your view of Reality if it's an abundant world it's Not scary to walk away If it's a finite world with limited Opportunities then it's horrifying But you have to uh use that world view To be willing to actually walk away Here It could be walking away from a lot of Money It could be walking away from something

That's gonna hurt people Because if you lose a hostage Yeah well but if they're not gonna let The hostage out yeah suicide by cop they Let them go The seven percent how do most Negotiations fail The bad guys were never there to make a Deal in the first place if it was Suicide by cop If they were there To if they're on a killing Journey It's an Israeli phrase Um if they're on a killing journey and The actions that they're currently Engaged in are part of that killing Journey Killing journey is there advice you can Give about you mentioned uh Israel-palestine the Middle East Taking on a few conversations on that Topic is there hope for that part of the World and from that hope is there some Advice you could lend yeah I think I Think I think there's hope there's Then I got friends on both sides And um also When I got my after I left the FBI Um most people listen to this probably Not going to remember who Rodney Dangerfield was oh come on buddy still Doesn't get in your respect yeah yeah Yeah and and uh New York is he a New Yorker I think he was the New York I

Like Jersey or something yeah Yeah and um he did a movie a long time Ago called back to school he went back To school he's an old guy back to school So I went back to school after I left The FBI I did get Um a masters at Harvard Kennedy And that's where you know I'm running Across people on both sides of that And when they could talk They said let's start from the promise That we both sides want a better life For our kids Which is his version That I was telling you um earlier from Tom gerardi let's pick a point in the Future yeah that we're both happy with And they found us they could talk You know we all right so it might not be Better for us how do we make it better For our kids And that that's where the the Hope Derives from because I think both sides Ultimately wanted to be better for their Kids which is why They still engage in interactions and Which is why I think the leadership Regardless of how Compromised they might be on either side There are few straight players in the Game in the Middle East Or anywhere for that matter Um But they want a better future for their

Kids you get people to agree that you Want a better future for your kids now You start talking about well how do we Work our way back from that and then all Right so we got a mutual point in the Future the israeli-palestinian Negotiations Also uh for me interesting because you Mentioned Clubhouse about almost two Years ago now Um when Israeli Israel was shelling Gaza They hit the UPI office You know they were hitting they they got Fed up with the rocket attacks from Hamas and of course Hamas is putting Rockets in the UPI office or the AP Office whichever press office it was There how's that office going to be There otherwise Hamas is running a show You're not going to run that office Unless they let you unless you let them Store weapons there that's just part of The game And and where are they gonna are they Gonna storm in specially designated Ammunition dumps no they're going to put Them in schools they're going to put Them in hospitals they're going to put Them in all places that when Israel had Some they're going to look really bad So after a while Israel gets fed up they Start shelling Gaza and they're hitting These places A friend of mine Nicole Benham

Is um hosting rooms on clubhouse and she Says you got to come on the vitriol is Killing me these are all turned into Screaming matches nobody's talking to Anybody I said all right cool we'll go on we'll We'll do it and watch we won't have a Single argument We'll invite people on from both sides The only there was one rule Before you started to describe what you Thought of the other side You had to say before I disagree with You here's what I think your position is And you got to continue to stay at the Other side's position until they agree That you've gotten Now what happened No agreement and no arguments That was what we were really going for We wanted to show that people On both sides in one of their emotional Time frames if your only requirement was You had to State the other side's Position first Nobody got out of control Did it work That's exactly what happened not one we Wanted to show people that you can have Conversations that do not devolve Into screaming matches with vitriol Talking about how you're dedicated to The destruction of the other side just First

See if you can outline where they're Coming from that's really impressive Because I've just having seen on Clubhouse people Which part of the reason I liked Clubhouse you get to hear voices from All sides they were emotionally intense Right It was uh I mean I was I'm sweating just In the build up of your story here I Thought it's gonna go could go to hell But you're saying it kind of worked now To one person lost control of the two Sides the people that were speaking on Behalf of the Israelis were a little Better yeah at articulating uh Supportive positions for the Palestinians Most of the people who want to speak up On behalf of the Palestinians they just They they'd want to start in like you're Doing this and I'd say no no no you can Go there just not yet before you go that You say that all you want Before you go there You've got to try to articulate to them Where they're coming from they got to Tell you got it right and what would Consistently happen Is there's a leveling out of a person to Try to see the other side's perspective And articulate it it's enormously Beneficial to the person who's trying to Do it which was really the point that we

Were trying to make it's a really Interesting exercise I mean that that by Way of advice so if it works at Clubhouse for people who don't know That's a it's like a voice app where you Can be anonymous that's really regular People but regular people who can also Be anonymous it's just it could be chaos If it works there that's really Interesting for uh when you sit down for A conversation across the table from Somebody Don't have them even steal me on the Other side have them just state The other side Just just Explain your understanding of it yeah That's it and every now and then I would Jump in Like you know and there's somebody Supporting Israel you know whoever the Heck they were And they they say a couple things And the Palestinian guy would be like Argyle or supportive of them would say You know you miss some stuff and I'd say Let me jump in First of all I know what the Knack by is The catastrophe that's the day Israel Was born you you know for the rest of The world's birth of Israel for you to Nakba I said you've got members of your Family That is still walking around carrying

Keys to the front door of the house they Abandoned And they'd be like yeah And I'd say you feel bad that in point Of fact that in World War II The world stood back and watched While the Nazis threw the Jews off a Building The only problem was they landed on you And they'd be like yeah That's where they're coming from So articulating you know deeply what the Other side feels is transformative for Both people involved in a process What's the toughest negotiation you've Ever been a part of or maybe observed or Heard of What's a difficult case you Just stands out to you or maybe you just Want one of many Well the uh the stuff we went through uh Without Qaeda Um in and around Iraq Iraq in Saudi First one was in Saudi in 2004 time Frame The hardest part about that was working With family members And not deceiving them About the possibility outcome yeah how Do you talk to family members is that Part of the negotiation yeah empathy Learning empathy the hard way And then being able to take it up to Higher levels because at its base level

Um a guy that we're working with now That's coaching Us in the U.S and as a Business partner his name is Jonathan Smith he pointed out to us That there's kind of there's a shuhari Concept are you familiar with shoe Harvey it's a martial arts concept And she was Um do it exactly as the master is Telling you to do it wax on wax off Karate kid stuff Aha is when you've done the reputation Repetitions enough times you're getting A feel for it And you begin to see the same lessons Coming from other Masters you're seeing The same thing show up in other places And at the re-level You're still in the discipline But you're making up your own rules It's almost a flow state And you don't realize That you're making up your own rules and If somebody asks you where you learned That You probably say I you know my my Sensei taught it to me My master taught it to me Um this will come back around the Negotiating with families pretty quick We did this once because there's a bunch Of people that we coach Um business people that are scared of The amount of money that they're losing

If we're not coaching them regularly One of these guys Michael we're Interviewing him For a social media posting about two Years ago And Michael says yeah you know you got To gather data with your eyes And I remember thinking and I went whoa I like that I said where did you hear that before And he goes you know I don't know I Heard it from you I think and I was like No no no I didn't remember saying that yeah for At that first time I've heard that he's In re So what's this got to do with families Empathy at its base level in a shoe Level I learned it on the suicide Hotline is saying like You sound angry I'm just calling out the elephant a room Your your emotions what's driving you I'm throwing a label on your affect And I'm saying you sound or it sounds Like you are Because that's the basic Karate Kid wax On wax off Approach Now there are a lot of Hostage Negotiators that'll tell you empathy Doesn't work at home not true they've Never gotten out of shoe You're getting ready to talk to your

Significant other And you want to go someplace That you know is going to make her angry You want to go do something now that's Real negotiation right there you could Say to You sound angry in which case she's Going to blow up because her reaction is You made me angry bozo How can you act like you're an innocent Third party or that you were independent Of how I feel bad And you learn learn a little bit more And you say The the high level is is probably going To make you angry And then what I did with families I knew how they felt before I walked on The door I knew that they were scared to death You find out that your your your husband Your father your brother has been Grabbed by Al-Qaeda who are in the Business of chopping people's heads off You're going to be horrified I can't Walk into them and go like you sound Angry Of course I'm angry you idiot But knowing what they are I used to walk Into family's houses And I'd say I know you're angry Now what it now what are the Circumstances dictate that they should Also feel

They're going to feel abandoned by their Government they're going to feel totally Alone They're going to be scared And they're going to be angry Because they feel the government abandon Them now they're in point of fact is This an accurate statement That their loved one voluntarily went Into a war zone and voluntarily went Someplace their government told them not To go Are the facts that the government Abandoned them absolutely not as a Matter of fact the government won't Tried to get them to knock out when they Went anyway But that doesn't change how they felt in The moment And I'd walk into a house and I go I Know you're angry I know you feel abandoned and alone And I know you're horrified and I know You feel the United States government Has abandoned you And I would look at me and go like Yeah What do we do now Now we're ready to rock Is there uh with Al-Qaeda or in general Is there a language barrier too it could Be just barriers of different Communication Styles I mean you got like A New Yorker way about it

That might make somebody from like I don't know Laguna Beach uncomfortable Do you feel that language barrier and Communication is Um that the language and communication Style and itself creating a barrier you Got a barrier when you think that your Way is the way sure that's the biggest Barrier yeah like and that happens all The time Um when people talk about what about Cross-cultural negotiations You know uh what hand do I gotta shake Hands with sure so that I can get my way [Music] Well if you strip it all down we're all We're all basically the same blanks like When we were born we gotta everybody's Got a limbic system everybody's limbic System works pretty much the same way People are driven by the same sorts of Decisions how does this affect my future One of my risk of losing how does this Affect my identity you know I kind of Kidnapper Your New York City businessman you're a Tobacco Farmer in the south All making those same same decisions Based on those same things So as soon as I start to navigate that And I tailor my Approach which is what Empathy is to what you think how you see Things

So I can be The biggest goofball ever from If you live in the south yeah maybe I'm A New Yorker or I'm somebody from LA or Somebody from Chicago But my geography is foreign to you but As soon as I start dialing in on how you See things Suddenly you're listening What about the three voices you talk About the different voices you can use In that communication right The Assertive's Voice direct and honest I'm a natural born assertive Natural Born I thought we're all Blank Slate it's your boy stop catching me on What I said how dare you through accuse Me of what I've said to quote Bono I Stand Accused of what I've said the Things I've said that's a good line he's Got a few good lines Yeah so assertive voice you're born that Way which one uh what are the other ones Uh analyst You're an analyst And I can tell you're assertive Yeah what's the analyst voice Well an analyst is close the smarter More thoughtful No as a matter of fact Look you ever do a decision tree yeah See you like it too don't you So decision trees you know there's I'm a Computer scientist so we have I like

Mathematical uh systematic ways of Seeing the world it's an analyst You think Donald Trump would ever say That Unlikely Well is he more of the assertive kind He's a natural born assertive yeah yeah Are all New Yorkers like this is this Someone something in the water no that's A crazy thing I mean there's an affect That a city can have yeah And um you know New York's Northeast not Just New York But the Northeast is is a little more The the the affect yeah of the area of The culture of the area the individuals Individuals still boil down into the Three types cross-abort what's the third One Um accommodator smiling optimistic Hopeful yeah I'm 100 a thousand percent Convinced that the phrase hope is not a Strategy Is designed at people's frustration over A third of the population being Accommodators that are hope driven I hope this works out And they're very relationship they on The surface they're very relationship Oriented they tend to appear to be very Positive and they are But it's really built around hope and The idea is you can adopt these three Voices you can yeah you can learn them

They're all learnable The analysts Are often mistaken for accommodators Because as you said before You know analysts are more introspective More analytical They're looking at the systems at work And If Um if they like to learn They notice That accommodators make more deals than They make they also notice that there's A higher failure rate of the deals But since they notice stuff and they Think about it They catch on faster than asserters do That the pleasant nature of an ant of an Accommodator contributes strongly to Them making deals Like my daughter-in-law Um is an analyst you know another Another descriptor we have in that an Analysts are assassins You know an analyst will snap you from a Thousand yards out in the middle of the Night And you never know what hit you and They're really happy with that But uh has how has assertiveness the Assertive voice served you in Negotiation poorly That's the sort of voice Is almost always counterproductive it

Feels like getting hit in the face with A brick And that's almost always Counterproductive so for me to be more Effective especially in a negotiation I'll need to slow slow down And smile You know I heard that uh Teddy Roosevelt Was a good negotiator and then he was Extremely stubborn And perhaps the right term for that will Be assertive but he picked his battles Is there some value to Holding strong to principles so I don't Even know if that's probably the Opposite of empathy are there times when You can just stick Be extremely stubborn to your principles We do it all the time we just you know We're just nice about it okay it helps To be nice you're saying well yes Because I need you to hear me and the Assertive tone of voice So when when we do our training Typically we do an exercise called 60 Seconds so she dies And I play the bad guy bank robber and I Ask you to be the hostage negotiator And your job is to give you the four Cons real world constraints And then you got to try and negotiate me Out of the bank now we're doing this now The first voice that I always use in That exercise is The assertive's Voice

Which is the commanding voice It's the voice that all police officers Have taught to use in the street Issued loud and clear commands You know it doesn't it to me I don't Feel like I'm attacking you I just feel like I'm being direct and Honest and clear You on the other hand feel attacked Now we're doing this exercise in Austin A couple of years ago the first Participant has an Apple watch on He tells us afterwards That's sitting still Not even answering When he first gets hit in the face with The assertive's voice his heart rate Jumped to 170. which is a typical fight Or flight reaction I come at you like I'm fighting you Your your fight flight mechanism all Kick into gear which clouds you're Thinking you're automatically Dumber in The moment So if I want to make a great long-term Deal with you Highly profitable I'm agnostic to you being profitable is It you'd be profitable that's fine I'm Here to make money for me Making you dumber will always hurt me Me making you feel attacked Will always hurt me So there's never a value in being in you

Making me Afraid There's never a long-term value in it That's um It's another thing that tall rise when We were writing a book Brace me on Because he said there's scientific data Out there that's called strategic Umbrage Well there's data well whether or not It's scientific I would call that into Question But he said there's studies out there That show that strategic umbrage works And Another thing that I also enjoy Uh you probably get tired of me saying Wonderful things about Andrew You talk there's never there's never Enough wonderful things to say about the Great Andrew huberman the host of the Human Lab podcast everybody should Subscribe to you should talk to Andrew You're funnier than he is though I'll Give you that Andrew he's funny Accidentally he makes me laugh all the Time not when he's trying to be funny Yeah he's a really uh he's one of the People in this world that's truly legit He's a really strong scientist and a Really strong communicator and a good Human being and it those those together Don't come often and it's nice to see

Yeah yeah Yeah he's a treasure National Treasure Anyway you were saying well he he sort Of taught me how to think about that in Studies and Science and And also from different uh books that He's turned me on to it's really helped Me think about this stuff so the study's About strategic umbrage Were done the ones that I've seen that Show it's effective There were simulated negotiations with College students now here's the problem With that A simulated negotiation with a college Student college students are going to Sit down as part of their assignment They're going to sit down one time They're going to sit down for 45 minutes And they're going to think that if they Didn't come to a deal at all that they Failed and there's no ongoing Implementation there's just a deal and Then they walk away a pretense situation So they got no actual real skin in the Game There's No Deal on Earth do you sit down And come to agreement 45 minutes and Never see each other again because There's the implementation of the deal If even if it's only payment So the data is flawed based on the way It was collected it's a highly flawed Study

And all data is flawed as you know as a Scientist you just got to be aware what The flaws are and decide whether or not That destroys the study or or what do You think you take a look at the data There's no such thing as perfect data Look at the data see what you think of It the data that says that strategic Umbrage works is based on flawed Circumstances can you explain strategic Umbrage get mad scaring the other side Into a deal Getting mad at using anger strategically To bully the other side into an Agreement That's nice to hear in some sense It's nice to hear that empathy is the Right way in almost all situations It's night best chance of success Not that it works every time just it Works more than anything else does what Is the technique of mirroring there's a Lot of cool stuff in your book they just Kind of Jump Around what's mirroring Mirroring is is like it's it's It's one of the most fun skills because It's the simplest to execute you just Repeat one to three Ish words of what somebody said usually The last one with three words Um what I found about it is People that really like mirroring love It because it's so simple and so Effortless and invisible

They typically For lack of a better term tend to be Both high IQ and high EQ like I'm not a High IQ guy I'm average dude I like to think that I can learn In EQ emotional intelligence is a skill You can build and I'm always working on Building it But a lot of really regular average People Were like marrying that stupid I'm not Doing that And I don't know why they don't like it But when I find somebody that loves the Mirror I'll always ask them you know how'd you I just go on I IQ and typically their IQ Is pretty high now I don't know why that Combination attracts people to Marin Because there's nine skills Um eight from hostage negotiation and we Then the ninth really was tone of voice And we just Define that as a skill And each one is different and focuses on Different Components of the conversation And a lot of people don't like the Mirror they found it so awkward like I I Don't particularly I'm not particularly Strong in mirroring I got to do it Intentionally I'm good at labeling but Does it almost always work Oh yeah Yeah it's

It feels maybe awkward but there's it's True there's got to be ways to signal That you're truly listening That's part of it I think you do body Language you can yeah there's a lot of Ways to signal that but mirroring is Probably just this trivial little hack It kind of is You know what there's a situation I had A conversation with Stephen codkin he's This historian and uh he would say my Name a lot throughout the conversation He would be like we have to understand Lex Is that and for some reason that was Making me feel really good I was like he Cares about me and I wonder if that key If everyone has that key that could be The name just using people's name could Be Powerful using the name is really Context driven It can be extremely powerful with Someone who's genuine and it comes Across in their demeanor And it's used in a way That you can tell is meant to encourage You yeah as opposed to explore you sure And the people that are really into Exploiting will also use it do the same Thing so you have to be you have to Avoid using the things that people that Are exploiters manipulators use Because it's it might signal to others

That this person is uh trying to trick Me it'll be very conscious over here uh What's labeling that you mentioned the Thing you like well you know I said Earlier that old progression from you Sound angry to this is probably going to Make you angry dude I know you're angry Labeling is is hanging a label on an Emotion or an affect and then just Calling it up Is that almost always good it could Could it be a source of frustration when A person is being angry and you you kind Of put a label on it Uh call out the elephant That is it possible that that will lead To escalation of that feeling versus of Resolution well The con what would make it bad like Um If I'm pointing out like that blatantly Obvious like if I say look I need you to get up and go down to the Bank and make the deposit let's say I'm Talking to my If somebody works in my company I need You to get on the phone with this person And make the appointment And I go Sounds like you want me to talk to this Person Yes that would be annoying if it's just So absurdly obvious yeah that there's no Insight in your label at all

And as soon as you're Demonstrating an awareness or a subtlety Or an Insight either to you or to them Now we're making progress So the only time A label could ever potentially be Counterproductive it's like if you Weren't actually listening yeah and the Label is Indicates that you're not listening You know um I'm teaching the USC And I'm teaching labels and you know one Of the kids in a class he just wants to Take the skills and make his deals and Just hustle them Yeah and he's just looking for the Hustle So he writes up a paper about you know He goes there's some some malls I think Over by Palm Springs or someplace some Outlet malls a lot of people go to buy Suits So he goes in there and immediately Starts the bargaining Uh that my book teaches with no empathy And he's like um throws a price to the Guy and the guy's like no And he throws another price of the gang Guys like no And then then he says to the the guy Behind the counter sounds like we can Make a deal Like no it doesn't I just shut down

Everything you just said if anything it Sounds like we're never gonna make a Deal yeah but he tried to use this label For manipulation Now the guy didn't get mad on the other Side but it's like clearly his dude is Not listening to me and at the core of Everything you have a bunch of like uh You know almost like hacks Like techniques you can use but at the Core of it is empathy Yeah that's the main things and be able To just sit there and listen And perceive Yeah and look for insights You know what I like silence or like You're both sitting there chilling with A drink looking up at the stars there's A moment The silence makes you kind of zoom out And realize you're in this together as Opposed to playing a game Or some kind of like chess game of Negotiation you're in it to get I don't Know there's some intimacy to the Silence and like if I I'll ask a Question And just let the other person Sit there and silence before they answer Or the vice versa they ask me a question I sit there in silence that's a it's a Big physical big intimate thing Yes and The other two types until they've

Experienced that are afraid of it And what I'm actually going to do is For whatever reason I'm really I'm Really comfortable with silence I think Because I've I've experienced its Effectiveness and also my son Brandon Like he's the king of dynamic silence Like he coaches people he says you go Silent count thousands to yourself Don't stop till you run out of numbers It's a good light yeah he's also good Good full of good lines he is that is And so There's so much to it But the other two types are natural Wiring against the white until they've Experienced it and you know you've got Instinct intuition is giving you data Once you've experienced it yeah but your Amygdala is kicking into gear again Sorry I realize it's more complicated Than that Until you've experienced it so Accommodators hope based How do they signal Fury the silent Treatment Ah So when you go silent They're scared the death you're Furious Yeah because that's how they indicate it The assertive Thinks to use the analyst went silent Because you want them to talk some more When a point of fact

You either You're thinking or and I love your Description the feeling of intimacy and Silence and experiencing the moment Because I'm actually going to factor That into trying to get The accommodators love shared intimacy They would love would love to experience A moment and I can see that being very Compelling then be willing to cross that Chasm and experience silence and see how See how it works for them Yeah it's nerve-wracking which is why I Sent to me because you start thinking What's the other person thinking we're Actually going to do this so we're going To sit here for 10 seconds and come I Mean there's tricks to it I guess like Brandon says is to just count it out and Realize through data that there's Intimacy to it at um uh a friend of mine He uh lost his voice because Singing so you couldn't the doctor says He can't talk for a week just to heal The voice yeah the vocal cords but he uh He hung out with other people with Friends and didn't talk to them he just Hung out and he said he was really Intimate they both they both didn't talk To each other They just sat there And you enjoyed time together I don't Know it's it's a it's a wake-up call It's a thing to try maybe with uh with

People in your life just hang out and Don't say anything like as an experiment Don't say anything the entire day But we're trying yeah definitely it's Interesting I haven't tried it myself It seems uh uh it's kind of like a Silent retreat but more uh active as Part of like regular everyday life Um anyway The is there other other interesting Techniques we can talk about here so um For example creating the illusion of Control Yeah that's principally you know by Asking what and how questions Because people love to tell others what To do or how to do it Um it does a lot that was that was Really the way when the book was first Written That we really thought about what and How questions is giving the other side The illusion of control And there's a lot more to it than that That we've discovered I mean it triggers Deep thinking it wears people down Deep thinking is could be exhausting and You want so what's the what's the role Of exhaustion and negotiation is that Ultimately you gotta be careful with That Um some people uh exhaust intentionally Uh one of my negotiation Heroes uh a guy Now who's unfortunately suffering from

Um dementia and Alzheimer's John Dominico Pico is the UN hostage Negotiators that got all the Western Hostages out of Beirut in the 80s And he wrote a book called Man Without a Gun And I'm acquainted with Johnny at this Point in time I think I don't think he Has any memory of who I am at all But he writes in his book uh One of the great secrets of negotiation Is exhausting the other side Political negotiations that could be Johnny was very deferential He was in the middle of in in the 80s Leading up to about 1986-ish Every negotiation involved in Uh warring parties in the Middle East That you can imagine He was in Cyprus He was in um Afghanistan Iraq and Iran the Iranian government had Tremendous Uh trust in him as a Westerner a Representative of the U.N got all the Westerners out of out of Beirut And he was just ridiculously patient And then which the other side found Exhaust would often find exhausting So exhaustion is a can be a component of Finding resolution in the negotiation if It's if it tamps down the negative Emotions often exhaustion will Tamp down

Negative emotions if it puts you if in Getting the real trick is really getting Negative emotions out of out of the way Because you're Dumber in a negative Frame of mind So the goal is always positive emotion As you talk about that's what you're Always chasing together I think I think So yeah and that's what the that's right It's about yes Like whatever you're triggering whatever The chemistry you're triggering in your Brain you're like yeah yeah we're doing Good here I think yeah long term for Long-term success absolutely How's the word Fair used The F-bomb as you call it how is it used And abused negotiation it's usually uh Uh used it's most frequently used as a Weapon It's abused as a point of manipulation It's what people say when they feel Backed into a corner and they can't Um come up with any legitimate reason as To why they're being backed into a Corner Like nobody uses the word f the F-bomb Nobody uses the word fair when they've Got criteria to back them up So consequently when somebody started Starts dropping it you got to realize The other side's got no legitimate Outside criteria they're they're feeling Very vulnerable they can't explain it

But they feel defensive And it saying hey look I've just I've Given you a fair offer Is a way for me to knock you off your Game if you're if you're not you're not Aware of it So a lot of cutthroat negotiations Negotiators are going to use it on you To knock you off your game the um Uh the NFL strike probably now it's been A good 10 years ago Um And maybe even longer than that One of this uh sticking points was the Owners were not opening their books to The players players wanted to see the Numbers And In order to not open their books they Just sent a rep sell the press Conference saying we've given them Players a fair offer Well if it was fair you to open your Books Yeah if if you gave him a fair offer and It was justified by what was in your Books you'd open them to prove your Point So what ends up happening though that Well the owners gave the players a fair Offer starts to get picked up in the Media And then it starts getting repeated and Now now there are different people on

The player's side are going like yeah Maybe maybe they have given us a fair Offer it caused People to be insecure about their own Positions it's an enormously powerful Word that can be used and abused and it Almost always comes up in every Negotiation it's shocking the number of Times it comes up with people who don't Really understand How or why it's coming up so usually It's a signal of Um of a not a good place in the Negotiation without question I'm Completely convinced that if the person Is using the word Is a means of getting what they want Then Either accidentally or on purpose either In their gut or they know they got a bad Position or their gut is afraid that They are Do I use the word What I'll say is I want you to feel like I've treated you fairly and if any given Point in time you think I'm not treating You fairly I want you to stop me And we're going to address it Big ridiculous question but How do you uh close the deal how do you Take the uh negotiation to its end is it Implementation ultimately you got to put You gotta pivot to agreed upon Implementation to really to really move

Out of the negotiation Um and I may say how do you how do you Want to proceed And if you don't know I might say no More into question is it a ridiculous Idea if I share with you some ideas of How to proceed And then you agree on the actual steps And that's the implementation it's not Just the philosophical agreement it's Actual steps the big problem in all Negotiations is a lack of discussion of Next steps That's deep who is the uh best Negotiator you've ever met yeah and Actually probably my son Brandon yeah Yeah he's ridiculously talented I mean he's ridiculously talented And yeah he's you know and what was it Cole's book the culture the Talent Code Says that you know people just noticed It and started getting good at it There's no such thing as a child prodigy Just got interested when they were a kid I mean Brandon started learning how to Negotiate when he was two years old And he's been in it and immersed in it You know since he can make complete Senses even before he can make complete Senses he's ridiculously talented what's Uh what's his future what's he want to Do uh he's uh gonna he has been involved He's he run and built my company and now

He's gonna be an Affiliated licensee run His own operation he's pretty he's Pretty much going to end up doing very Much Uh uh he's going to open his Entrepreneurial opportunities to do Whatever he wants and not have his dad Say no [Laughter] And do a better job than his dad most Likely yeah yeah okay Do you see some of the techniques that You talk about as manipulative Manipulation is whether or not I'm Trying to exploit you hurt you Um Am I trying to manipulate a bank robber And to let me save his life Yeah So manipulation is like what am I what Am I trying to do to you yeah So but so you don't see the negative Connotation if you're trying to uh bring A better future it's not manipulation Stop if I'm trying to bring a better Future if I'm being genuine and honest Like I compliment you yeah if if my Compliment is genuine That's not manipulation like better but You know if I think You know you're you got a pair of shoes That that are the dumbest looking things I've ever seen and I go wow those are Great shoes no that's manipulation

So there's uh there's guys I call Warren Buffett who are big on integrity and Honesty what's the role of uh Lying in effective like a bad idea lying Is just a bad idea for a variety of Reasons First of all Um there's really good change the other Side it's a better life than you are They're going to spot it right off the Bat yeah Yeah secondly They could be luring you into a trap to See if you will lie Thirdly the chances are they're going to Find out they lied to them eventually Is really high and then the penalties And the taxes Are going to be way higher than what you Had in the first place so long term you Want to have a reputation of somebody With integrity and the more you lie the Harder it is to maintain that reputation Yeah exactly and where it's going to get Out Yeah yeah so what's the if we can just Return to that question what's the Difference between a good conversation And a good negotiation Can we uh because I think just uh reading your work Listening to you There's a sense I have that the thing We're doing now and just conversation on

The podcast and so on is different than Negotiation it feels like the purpose is Different And yet having some of the same Awareness Of the value of empathy Is extremely important but it feels like The goals are different Or no Um really close fine line I mean I you Know I I Ruled in here not having any Expectations Not looking for anything other than have An interesting conversation And um to Hear what was behind the questions that You were asking me and what interests You And then also Um your description of silence and a Power of Silence something I'm going to Take away as a learning point and how Learn to teach others But I didn't come in here I suppose a Negotiation is when we're both aware of A problem we're trying to solve Right there's no problem in the room Right just to solve except maybe like The Human Condition and inside you know Wisdom Insight learning How do you uh Train to become better at negotiating Um in business and uh in life yeah just Small Stakes practice for high stakes

Results I mean decide what what kind of Negotiating resonates with you I mean What's that means small Stakes practice For high Stakes or small state it's a Small little Incremental like picking up girls at a Bar what are we talking about Well it Can't be uh for some people that's That's high stakes practice Well you know labeling labeling mirrors What are the basic tools of great Negotiation labeling mirroring Paraphrasing summarizing So you start you start labeling a mirror People that you just haven't regular Interactions with just to gain a feel For whether or not you can read Somebody's affect or how accurate your Read is to get better at it And so you know label the The Lyft driver Or the grocery store clerk Or a person behind the airline counter At the at the airport so putting a label On their affect or throwing something at Them That because negotiation is a parable Perishable skill emotional intelligence Is perishable so seeing if you can Indicate that you understand early Um one of my favorite labels to throw Out on somebody which you know maybe Re-level I might look at somebody who Looks distressed and I'll go tough day

So Several years ago Um at the counter at LAX oh well I'm Waiting the line to get to the counter And a lady behind the counter is clearly Making a point to not meet my eyes so That I don't approach And she looks and so like you you know You know when you're next in line and They're making sure that you don't meet Eyes And I'm thinking to myself all right so They're having a bad day so I woke up And as soon as I approach the counter I Go tough day And she kind of snaps around And she goes no no no how can I help you And goes out of her way to help me Now I'm practicing but I also know it Made her feel better it relieves some of The stress so now I'm going through TSA I want to look for people having a tough Day it's a good place to find a good Place to find and practice And I'm rolling through the line and I Realize I haven't tossed a label out on Any one of these guys and and there's This guy watching the bags come out of The X-ray machine he's just kind of got An indifferent look on his face and I go Tough day And he kind of goes I can see from his Body language like no And I go just another day huh and he

Goes yeah just another day you know he Felt seen but I missed and I'm Practicing and I'm trying to stay sharp So these are the few words with just a Few words you're trying to like quickly Localize the effect and not live on it Very very very analytically said thank You Thank you I'm not letting it go I love it Um It does this thing apply to just Conversation in general just how to get Better conversation I think a lot of People struggle they have insecurities They have anxiety about conversation I As funny as it's to say I have a lot of Anxiety about conversation Is that it basically do the same kind of Practice practice some of the techniques Yeah genuinely just trying to make sure You heard somebody out yeah What's the best conversation you've ever Been in except this one of course Wow what what I mean not the best Conversation but what stands out to you As conversation that changed you as a Person maybe well there's probably been A lot of them along the way I mean but One that one that I remember on a Regular basis there's actually there's Two but um when I was in the bureau uh I'm at Quantico I'm their financial

Services another guy from New York buddy Of my name Lionel And we're both trying to decide whether Or not we want to be try to get into Profiling or negotiation Because they're both about human Dynamics and both of us really like Human dynamics And we're sitting around talking about It and we're talking about several Things in any labels me and I know he Didn't know what he was doing I think I Think he was just he had picked it up And I'd been talking about my family Quite a few things And he said to me and I never said this Directly that we were close But he said to me it sounds like your Family's really close and I can remember In the Moment Like This Feeling Just Like I felt great in the moment I mean What he said just drew together Everything that I'd been saying and Nailed the essence of it and I have a Very clear recollection of how good that Felt in a moment So a couple years later I'm on a suicide hotline now I got this Line in the back of my head you know Um line technique reaction read whatever You want to call it Guy calls in on a hotline And I could tell the dude is rattled by His tone of voice I mean just just amped

Up And he goes You know I'm just trying to put a lid on The day I need I need your help putting A lid on today I gotta I gotta put a lid On the day And I go you sound Anxious And he goes he goes yeah And he and he came down a little bit and He was a guy that was He was telling me about he was battling The disease disease of paranoia And he's gonna go on a car trip with his Family the next day and he knew they're On the card trip he was gonna you know Twist himself in the knots and so the Night before he's twisting himself in The knots And he's laying out everything that he's Done to try to beat Uh Uh paranoia and how much his family's Helping him And and he's going on a car trip with The family because they're going to take Him to see a doctor And so I I hit him with the same thing That my buddy Lionel said I said it Sounds like your family's close It goes yeah we are close and you love a Lot a little bit more And then he started taking off all the Things that he was doing to try to be

Paranoia and he sounded determined And so I said You sound determined And he goes yeah I am determined And I'll be fine tomorrow Thanks And that was all I said so those two Conversations which are overlapping Conversations those two things really Stick out of my mind Do those things like through all the Different negotiations and conversations You've had Duke do they kind of echo throughout Like you basically Because when you empathize with other Human beings you start to realize we're All the same And so you can start to Pick little phrases here and there that You've heard from others little Experiences they were all about like we All want to be Um To be close with other human beings we All want love the world I think we're all deeply lonely inside And looking for connection Um or just if we're If we're honest About it and so all humans have that Same all the same different components Of um Oh it makes them tick

So you you kind of see yourself Basically just Saying the same things to connect with Another human being yeah there aren't That many different things that we're Looking for understanding on or Connection on or satisfaction of there Just aren't that many of them regardless And so yeah you're looking forward To manifest itself In some form or another and you're Willing to take a guess on whether or Not that's what you're seeing or hearing What uh advice would you give to me to Be better at These conversations To me and to other people that do kind Of um interviews and podcasts and so on Wow That I really care about empathy as well Is there a kind of as a lifelong journey In this process yeah well I think I Would advise you to take that approach Which is the approach you're taking you Care about it you're very curious about It You see it is a lifelong journey you're Fascinated by it You enjoy Learning about it And and you definitely do see it as a Lifelong journey as opposed to this is What I can if I can acquire this then I Can manipulate people no I mean I I fall

In love with people I talk to there's a Kind of deep connection and it lingers With you especially when I'm preparing Uh the more material there's in a person The more you get to fall in love with Them ahead of time they think you get to Really understand not understand but Um what I mean by fall in love well Appreciate huh appreciate but also Become deeply curious that's what I mean By following like yeah you appreciate The things you know but you start to see Like Alice in Wonderland you start to See that there's all this cool stuff you Can learn if you keep interact with them And then when you show up and you Actually meet you realize It's like more and more and more and More it's like in physics the more you Learn the more you realize you don't Know and it's like it's really exciting And then it could also be heartbreaking Because you have to say goodbye goodbye I hate goodbyes I hate goodbyes seems Terminal right yeah it makes it reminds Me that I'm gonna die one day huh like Things end good things end it sucks but Then it makes the the moment more Delicious you know that you do get to Spend together yeah Okay uh I I just wanna I completely Forgot I want to ask you about this the Uh 7 38 55 rule it's really interesting Does this is there an all truth to it uh

That seven percent of a message is Conveyed from the words used 38 from the Tone of voice and 55 from body language Is that really true to that all right so Albert Moravian I think is the name of The UCLA uh Professor that originally Proposed the 738 55 ratio and discussed It in terms of that it wasn't the Message but how much the he called it Liking like are you not that you're the Meeting is coming across but you're Liking of the message and so That's been extrapolated heavily by People like me Um to this meaning of the meaning in 738.55 from liking to the meaning What I've seen regularly is People that communicate verbally if They're speakers Tony Robbins 738-55 guy he's he throws the ratio out There Go that's it exactly that's exactly how The message comes across this is how we Got to balance it This is how we got to do it Those that communicate principally in Writing The meaning of the words are much more Important to them So they're deeply uncomfortable with Seven being Awards because the content The words the meaning of the words when You're writing it's so important That you you hate to poo poo it that way

So I I first of all a thousand percent Believe it's an accurate ratio But the real critical issue is not what The ratio of those three things are It's what's what's the message when They're out of line Like what's the message when the tone of Voice is out of line with the words like It don't matter what your ratio is you Got a problem if their tone does not Match their warts Yeah and that's that's hard to really Put Um Put a measure on exactly even in writing There's a tone I mean it's not just even in writing It's not just the words there's the Words but there's like a style Underneath the whole thing right and There's something like a body language The presentation of the whole thing I Mean they're yeah yeah I'm a big fan of Uh constraint mediums of communication Which writing is or voice like Clubhouse There's a personality to a human being When you just hear their voice There's it's not just it's you could say It's the tone of voice but there's like You can like what is it the imagination Fills in the rest Like what I'm looking for somebody I'm Like I'm imagining some amorphous being Right doing things when they get angry

I'm imagining anger I don't know what Exactly I'm visualizing if you if well And so you you may think of a funny Story because we were talking about your Buddy Elon before yeah and I told you You know about you know that I'd Interacted with some of the senior Executives So I know that they that they that that They love working with them and I think He's an interesting guy and they realize That he can be funny and he jokes around Yeah so that they tell me during this Conference call just words And uh a guy on the other end the line Says something Um you know that wasn't wasn't was wrong But wasn't bad yeah and so they said They're on a they're on a phone and Elon Goes you're fired and then everybody in The room with them can see that he's Joking yeah But the person on the other side and They're all going wait wait wait wait They can't see your look on your face Right now you gotta stop you gotta stop Because the guy on the other side is Dying right now he doesn't realize You're joking yeah so there was you know There were the words and the tone of Voice and but it lacked the visual to go With it Uh nevertheless it was probably funny Um

Uh maybe not to him uh just just as uh Interesting to ask I don't know if You're following along the developments Of large language models there's been Something called Chad GPT there's just More More and more sophisticated and Effective and impressive chat Bots Essentially they can they can talk And they are becoming more and more Human-like right do you think it's Possible uh in the future that AI would Be able to be better in negotiators Than humans do you think about that kind Of stuff uh well so definition of better Or or versus less flawed like they're They're you know the chat Bots have been Out there for a long time and um Probably about Five years ago now Uh company approached us because they Were doing a negotiation chat bot And they said two things first uh first Of all I said you know why are you Talking to us it's a well-on point of Fact We already spoke to the people that are Teaching quote the Harvard methodology And you know the rational approach to Negotiation just doesn't work rational Approaches does not work it's our chat Bots are not getting anywhere But we're showing In in around about 80 percent of the

Interactions A higher success outcome with these chat Box And they showed me what they were doing And it was still a lot deeply flawed Emotional intelligence wise But the reason why that they were having Higher success rates is the chat Bots Were never in a bad mood and you could Reach out for Chad Bach in the middle of The night So if you were talking to somebody that Was never upset and was always available Then you're going to have a higher Success rate negotiations go bad when People are in a negative frame of mind So the pot the natural ability Um of a chatbot to be positive it's just Going to give you a Higher success rate yeah and and they're Not they're not going to get mad and Argue with you you know you say You say to a chadbot you know your price Is too high Chadbot is designed to come back with a Smiley face yeah you say to a person Your price is too high if you go how Dare you I'm trying to make a living you Know they're gonna go off the deepest uh Unfortunately or fortunately I think the Way chat Bots are going now they will Come back negative because they're Becoming more human more and more Human-like that's the whole point to be

Able to pass the touring test you have To be negative you have to be an You have to have boundaries you have to Be insecure you have to have some Uncertainty what is them just doing Being having boundaries and being Negative like I can like you you threw a Proposal to me But you know before I say no I'm gonna say look I'm sorry that just Doesn't work for me I'm gonna set up a real clear boundary Without being negative share so then a Lot of people Really struggle with setting boundaries Without being negative without name Calling without indignation without Getting upset but see there's a when you Are When you show that you're not getting Upset I'm not just seeing that I'm seeing a FL I'm seeing a flawed human That has underneath it a temper Underneath it the ability to get upset Right but chooses not to get upset and a Chatbot has to demonstrate that so it's Not just going to be cold and and uh you Know be this kind of corporate blank Empty sort of uh like vapid creature That just says oh thank you thank you For saying that no it's basically uh you Have to the chatbot has to be able to be Mean and choose not to be

Interesting I don't know maybe I'd be I'd be willing to to see that Play out and see uh see how it plays out But I guess what I'm saying is to be a Good negotiator you have to be have the Capacity to be a bad person and choose Not really I think so see I I think you Just gotta have the capacity to set a Boundary and stick to it Interesting I because I think it's hard For me to trust a person who's not aware Of their own demons Because if you say you don't have any Demons if you don't have any flaws I Can't trust you Yeah well it's first of all it's a lie Right so somebody's lying right because It gets back to life yes so you have to Have a self-awareness about that uh but He'd be able to control it demonstrate Be able to control it I mean this is Humans I just think humans Intelligent effective humans are able to Do this well and chat Bots are not yet And they're moving that direction so It makes me think about what is actually Required for Effective negotiation That's what AI systems do is they make You ask yourself What is it that makes humans special any Discipline what is it that makes human Special chess and go games which AI Systems are able to beat humans at now What is it that makes them effective at

Negotiation what does it make them Effective at Um Something that's extremely difficult Which is navigating physical spaces so Doing things that we take for granted Like making yourself a cup of coffee is Exceptionally difficult problem For robots yeah because of all the Complexities involved in navigating Physical reality we we have so much Common Sense reasoning built in Just about how gravity Works about how Um objects move The What kind of objects there are in the World it's a it's it's really difficult To describe because it all seems so damn Trivial but it's not trivial right Because a lot of that we just learned as Babies we keep running into things and We'll learn about that so AI systems Help us understand what is it that makes Humans really what is the wisdom we have In our heads and negotiation to me is Super interesting because negotiation is Not it's about business it's about uh Geopolitics it's about running Government Is basically negotiating how do we the Different policies different uh bills And programs and so on how do we Allocate money How do we reallocate resources all that

Kind of stuff that seems like AI in the Future could be better at that But maybe not Maybe you have to be a messy weird Insecure uncertain human and debate each Other and yell at each other on Twitter Maybe you have to have the red and the Blue teams That yell at each other Um in in the process of figuring out What is true maybe AI systems will not Be able to do that I figure out the full Mess of human Of human civilization yeah interesting Well I mean the two thoughts that I had Along the way was I mean anytime you're talking about Systems or scaling You know yeah you're talking my belief Is Chatbot systems Things that don't require decision Making just following the instructions At least 80 percent of what's going on Now the remaining percentage whatever it Is does it does it require the human Interaction and what's required like I'm Not I'm not I'm not like I am not Pro-conflict and I also know that There's a case to be made in the Creative world That some of the best thinking came out Of conflict Um

Reading interviews about you too You know their admiration for some of The Beatles best music came when they Were fighting with each other And the song one octoon which is I Believe from the album octum baby Those guys were fighting I mean they Were on the verge of breaking up And their appreciation that conflict Could create something beautiful And then when I was in a crisis Negotiation unit you know my last seven Years in the FBI It was a guy that um named Vince Brilliant dude brilliant brilliant Negotiator And he and I used to argue all the time And then when we had a change in the guy Who was in charge The guy was in charge took me off to the Side and he's like you know I can't take You and Vince fighting all the time And I said well I got news for you I Think we come up with much better stuff As a result of our battles And he said you know Vince said the same Thing to me And I'm like so well if we don't have a Problem fighting why why do you have a Problem yeah But you know some there is there is Something there that sometimes the most Difficult insights You rack your brains as to why someone

Is so Dug in on something that so you think is So wrong Yeah maybe there's something to it I Think there's something to it there's Something about conflict even drama that Might be a feature not a bug of our Society very interesting Uh do you think there will always be war In the world yeah [Laughter] Uh so there will always be a need for Negotiators and negotiating well as it Turns out Um why do you think there will always be A war is it what's your intuition about Human nature there yeah just because We're basically 75 negative and then For lack of a better term I call it two Lines of code like somewhere when you Everybody when we were little somebody Planted in two lines into our head we Don't know when it got in there But somebody said something to us it's Stuck And there are a lot of people that had Some really negative garbage dumped in Their brain When they were little And Just based on the numbers yeah what kind Of opportunity they were given Afterwards did they ever have an Epiphany moment

When I genuinely believe they can get Get themselves out of it like what is it One of Joseph spends his book is Breaking the habit of being yourself Yeah you know like how do you get at That two lines of code that that Either mean or well intentioned but Stupidly speaking adults said to you at The wrong moment and plan it in your Brain like how the chances of everybody On Earth getting out of getting that out Even the majority of people on Earth Getting that out of their heads is Really small What advice would you give to a young Person today about how to have a career They could be proud of or a life maybe Somebody in high school College trying to figure out their way In this world It's probably a take on a cliche of uh Do what you love but um If you if you figure out your ideals And pursue your ideals And stick to them When it costs you Like a guy admire very much Michael Mogill uh runs his or operation crisp Video in Atlanta In one of his talks he would say core Values are what you uh stick to that Cost you money It's not a value that really matters to You unless it's costing you

And stick to your values Now when I was in the FBI I worked Really hard at you know the number one Core mission of the FBI is protect and Defend the American people So I could pursue that value At all times which I did or I could Follow the rules You don't have time to do both When did you know you you found what you Love Like When did you fall in love with whatever This process is that is negotiating It was in in a conversation on the Suicide hotline that I was telling you About earlier with the guy who was Paranoid hmm When I thought I can have that Significant of an impact on another Human being in this short of a period of Time That's really cool How hard is it to talk somebody off the Ledge So this question is a big question now Why why the hell live at all How do you have that kind of deeply Philosophical deeply psychological and Also practical conversation with Somebody and convince them that they Should stick around well it um It's more clear and clearing the clutter In their head

And and let them make up their own mind That that was what volunteer on suicide Island was really about just let me help Let me let me see how quickly I can Clear out the clutter in your head If you're willing to have it cleared out Like did you call here because you're Actually looking for help Or did you call here to fulfill some Other Agenda So are you you know are you willing to Have are you willing to clear the Clutter in your head not everybody is So once you clear out the Clutter As a the at least somewhat hopeful Chance that you'll uh you'll continue For another day yeah And and like if you step back like very Few people that commit suicide Physically or up against it that hard Like most of them by and large are Pretty intact physically human beings They're struggling with emotional stuff But That it's an it's an emotional issue It's not a physical issue So if you would be a complete mercenary Like a guy I'm a very big fan of a guy Named Mark Pollock Uh born great athlete lost his eyesight And then became paralyzed Like he's an emotional Um

Uh leader he's about helping people Thrive and live great lives Like Marx was born he was a spectacular Athlete And first he lost his side and one eye Then he lost his side and the other eye And then he fell out a window in a Tragic experience like if there was ever A dude that was saying like living sucks You know and if there's any doubt in my Mind something worse happens to me every Few years But Mark's about being alive and Inspiring other people So the hard part with navigating was Somebody who's tossing it in because They there is a chemical imbalance or or There it's the way they're interpreting The world there's clutter in their head Like how can you how can you help clear That clutter in her head and help him Buy themselves Inspire them to reinterpret that world Yeah as one worth living in yeah Uh what do you think is the meaning of Life Was lost why why I live what's what's Why what's what's a good reason well I Have I have um I have very strong Religious beliefs Um Spiritual you know I I don't a thousand Percent if you were to try to confine me In a box

Um I'd be a Christian And I have tremendous respect for the Jewish I don't think any religions got It nailed exactly I'm again you know I keep mentioning Them I'm kind of a Bono Christian I Think Bono's he's like what Uh Uh and I'm gonna butcher but you know my Belief in Jesus is what I've got after Christianity leaves a room you know the Dogma of man's application of spiritual Beliefs So but that being said I I truly believe That my life was a gift and there's There's a purpose here and You know for my Creator decided that I Woke up in the morning because he still Had some cool interesting things for me To do And you have gratitude for having the Opportunity to live that day yeah Well you do one heck of a good job at Living those days I really appreciate Your work I appreciate the person you Are Um thank you for uh just everything You've done today for just being Empathic honestly you're a great Listener you're a great Conversationalist it's just an honor to Meet you and to talk to you this was Really awesome Chris my pleasure Thanks for listening to this

Conversation with Chris Voss to support This podcast please check out our Sponsors in the description and now let Me leave you some words from John F Kennedy Let us never negotiate out of fear But let us never fear to negotiate Thank you for listening and hope to see You next time

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