Matthew Cox: FBI Most Wanted Con Man – $55 Million in Bank Fraud | Lex Fridman Podcast #409

She found like $40,000 in cash in my Freezer one night so she's like what is Going on you know and so we have this Conversation and I tell her Look people are looking for me who law Enforcement which ones all of them you Know she's like that doesn't even what For what I Go mostly bank fraud and she's like well How are they not finding you mhm I mean Everybody you know people know you like You know your general contractor which I Met 4 months before this guy 6 months Before this was two months before you Know she's like so and so so and so so And I'm like right right well I said Well she's like I mean they've got your Name they've got your I go well that's Identity theft and she was like what do You mean I said well my name's not you Know my name's not it's not Joseph Carter and what is your what is your Name I go look you know it's it's you Don't need don't even worry about it The following is a conversation with Matthew Cox a con man recently released From federal prison where he served 13 Years for bank fraud mortgage fraud Identity theft passport fraud and other Charges he has admitted guilt to all of It he has written true crime stories of Many of his fellow prisoners and now he Continues this work by interviewing Criminals about their crimes on his

YouTube channel that I recommend called Inside true Crime exploring the mind of a criminal Is exploring human nature at the Extremes often in its most raw and Illuminating form and that is something I definitely want to do with this Podcast to understand the human mind and Everything it is capable Of this is Alex Freedman podcast to Support it please check out our sponsors In the description and now dear friends Here's Matthew Cox what was the first crime you Committed the first mortgage I ever did A mortgage is me borrowing money from a Bank to buy a house yeah how can you Find a way to commit crime in this how Can you do fraud in this space it's it's Very difficult for the average guy to Commit fraud because there's so many Safeguards set up um you know if you Were to go in and say um I make $300,000 A year okay well we want your W2 we want Your pay stuffs we're going to call your Employer we're going to check to make Sure your employer how long they've been Incorporated we're going to check to Make sure they're registered we're going It's like ah your whole plan fell apart You know because the average guy can't Do that he can't even come up with the With the pace7 W2 so the average person You know or I'm going to put down this

Much money but you're going to borrow That money from the seller you know okay Well then they start asking for bank Statements where did the money come from How long has it been in your bank like You can't even have it put in your bank For a day get a letter you know it's got To have been there for 90 days or 60 Days depending on the bank and and so There's all these ways for the average Person it's very difficult to commit Fraud the average guy that works at Walmart and makes $60,000 a year and He's been there for five years and he Saved his deposit like it's a very That's really the guy that those Transactions are set up for to borrow a Mortgage from Bank of America that's the Guy they're looking for so to commit Fraud in this space you have to Misrepresent some aspect of your ident Identity of how much you're worth how Much money you have this kind of stuff Right you have to be able to to lie to The bank anytime you lie to the bank You've committed fraud and it's funny When I was you know doing it I would say Ah it's it's in the gray area there's no Gray area you're either lying in some Capacity or you're not So it's for instance the very first loan I did I I wided out um my Borrower had been 30 days late on her Uh on a rent so they're really looking

At the last two years so when when you Go in the bank and they most of what They're asking is a is a two-year window They're saying how long have you been on Their job they care about two years and How long have you been at your um at Your residency they're looking for two Years now you could be at three places In two years that's fine as long as you Consistent consistently paid for two Years well she had been in an apartment Complex but she'd been 30 days late now She caught it up But she was late Bank the bank doesn't Want to lend you money if if you've been 30 days late so I was a broker and I Whed out the 30-day late I just got rid Of it and my manager is the person that Told me to do it she said it'll be fine And she was right it was what did it Feel like so that was the first Fraudulent action you committed yeah I I Mean I you know I I was I was worried You know I always say you know I sweat Bullets for you know four or five days You know but I mean I I I was concerned And and I don't know that I was Concerned that I had broken the Law uh I was concerned because I was Behind on my on my truck payment I was Behind on my mortgage like I had banked On being a mortgage broker and I'd gone Deep deep behind on all my bills to do This so in the last minute when this

Loan isn't going to close and I have to Commit fraud to make that happen and the Idea my fear was they were going to Figure it out and maybe I'd get fired You know I didn't think I was going to Go to jail because my manager assured me You're not going to jail like they You'll get fired at at Best so my concern was they were going To catch it and I get fired and I Wouldn't get paid like I needed that Money so bad so maybe paint the picture Here where were you working who was the Manager the manager what it's funny cuz I I I don't think I ever really Mentioned this it her name was uh Gretchen Zas she eventually I don't mind Saying she eventually got ended up going To jail for fraud her name was Gretchen Zas and she was a manager I was working For a company called Eagle lending and It was in Tampa and I this was like my first month So my very first deal three or four Weeks into it into that first month and I walk in I put the file in in front of My manager she looks through everything You know oh great good good and put this One piece of paper over here mhm and sat There and then when she was done I said Uh what's what's going on she goes Perfect files perfect she goes but your Borrow was 30-day late on her rent and She says that that's it's done she's

Like that's a deal killer and I was like Oh my gosh you know what do I do and I Remember she pulled out a w thing a White out the white out not the sticks With the one and she started going and I Was like what she goes if I was you and She handed she I'd wi it out make a copy Stick it back in the file yeah she said It'll be fine and I went I could I was Like that that's fraud I could go to Jail and she goes and she was like it's They're never going to catch it she said Look we do stuff I do stuff all the time She said they're not going to catch it And nobody's calling the FBI she say the Worst case that that worst case scenario If underwriting catches It then They'll fire you that's it nobody's Calling you're not going to jail and I Was you know I trusted her I was like Okay and so I I did what she said I Stuck it in the file and I mean look Like I said for four or five days I was Like oh my God I'm so scared how old do You at this point probably 29 I think it Was 29 you know like I had gone to College and so many things had not Worked out you know I got a degree in Fine Arts it's not it's not a there's Not a lot of people looking for anyone With a fine arts degree and uh you know I tried my I try to be A uh try to be a an insurance adjuster

Tried that for about a year year and a Half that didn't work out uh ended up Ended up working Construction for a few Years and you know so finally the girl I Was dating said you got to be a mortgage Broker you know she's just had just Started as a mortgage in the mortgage Industry and she was like you have to do This like you were born to do this this Is perfect for you what did she see in You she said just you're a Salesman and I was like cuz I was like you know I Barely balanced my checkbook like I Don't I don't know anything about Numbers and she's like it has nothing to Do with that it's sales it's putting Together deals you know you're good at That you're good at negotiating you're You know you're a natural sales Salesman and I figured i' I need to try Something so what aspect of mortgages is Sales and deal making and what aspects Require the Charisma that you clearly Have well one you've got you have Clients that have lots of options they Can go to Bank of America they can go to Sun Trust they can go to Chase they have Options if they have perfect credit I Ended up working for a company that was A subprime lender and those people Didn't have a lot of options by Honestly By the time they got to that to Eagle Lending their options were over so what

End ends up happening is you're Negotiating with sellers you know you Would think that a lot of the stuff that In that industry that real estate Agents should do you the Brokers end up Doing because real estate agents are are Used to you meet them at the house or They take you to several houses they you Know they they open the door they walk Around they write up a contract that's Legit a legit contract and you already You're already Pre-approved everything works out but Subprime that's not the case you got Borrowers with horrific job history they Don't have enough of the down payment They can't maybe they have the down Payment but they don't have the closing Cost so you have to go to the real Estate agent and say listen I need you To raise the purchase price and have the The seller pay the closing costs which Is legal but that's not to a degree but That's not how they wrote up the Contract so now you're having to get Them to rewrite the contract or you're Have you're you know there's little Things you're trying to do and the more The more deals you get done and the more You deal with certain real estate agents The more you start to Realize that they're you know you know Which ones are completely above board And which ones are willing to twist the

Rules and a lot of it works on personal Relationships right right for some Reason people tend to like me and trust Me yeah I don't know why it's it's it Hasn't worked out for so many people but People naturally seem to trust me and so If I say hey I can close the loan but You got to do this it'll be cool don't Worry we do it all the time it's like my Third loan and you know I I've been Doing this for years and they go okay And then they raise the purchase price They add some money they have the seller Of the house give the borrower some Money they stick it in the bank or they Put it in the in escro at the closing Company like now you're starting to Massage deals what was the second time You committed a crime so what how did it Start to evolve from the white out well I mean when that went through you know I I think a normal person probably would Have Said wow it was a onetime thing got away With it I'm good but for me it just Emboldened me MH like I just got a chat For like I don't know what it was 25 $3,500 I was thrilled and by that time I Was already working on another deal but That Guy he made I forget something like he Had made like let's say $45,000 the year before in his W2 if you based on his based on his

Current track record or or his year-to Date of his pay St he made just enough Money but if you factored in last year's W2 he was shy so if I change that 45,000 To 51,000 Then he could the loan closes I get a Check for 3500 bucks he gets into a House I'm doing him a favor you know I'm Doing God's work so I fix it it I kick Back I'm terrified a little bit you know Worried about it sure enough it closes Four or five days later they call me He's ready to close a week later we Close I get a check next guy that comes In I mean I got very very Quickly I was concerned do you have a House do you have a deal is it ready I Can get you I can get you done now if You were in bankruptcy or something There's some things you just you pull Their credit and you just couldn't help Them if they were if they had a 550 Credit score or something and no job I Mean you know it had to be within reason But very quickly it was changing W2s Changing pay subs changing appraisals um You know fixing verif like I said Verifications of Rent so it evolved very quickly for me And you're essentially helping people That's what I told myself giving him a Chance people that have been really Struggling financially in life so you've Been telling yourself that this is

You're doing a good good thing for People I told myself that right up until That those loans were solid and I was Helping those people out right up until I went to prison and and I was in prison And I had to write the government asked Me to write an ethics and fraud course For to help teach the nation's mortgage Brokers um you know all loan officers And Brokers have to take I think it's Nine hours of continuing education every Single year and I was approached to Write the ethics course and it was about That time and about the same period of Time I was writing uh writing a book my Book and that kind of you I started Reflecting on what I had done you know And the truth is Like and this is a horrible thing to say Cuz the first time I ever heard somebody Say this I remember thinking oh that's a Horrible thing to say some people should Not own an house they shouldn't be Allowed to borrow they're not in a Position financially you know and and There were there were many occasions Where I put someone in a house that they 100% swore they could afford it was I Was helping them I told myself I was Helping them and a year and a half later They're going into foreclosure their Stuff's on the corner they don't know Where to Go and the truth is is that I I'm not

Smarter than the actuaries that came up With those underwriting Guidelines so in this whole process how Are you making money are you taking a Percentage broker fee yeah I charge a Broker fee or you charge yield spread so Yield spread is let's say the interest Rate is 8% interest if I charge them 25 Basis points over the 8% so I charge Them 8 and a quarter you know 8.25 then I get 1% of the loan back as a fee so if I charge them 85% I get two points back so if it's a $100,000 piece of property and the bank Says your interest rate is going to be 8% and I tell you 8.5 and I'm charging you a $3,500 broker Fee now I'm making $5,500 so on even a $100,000 loan you Could make a nice chunk of change I mean It's so how much gray area is here you Said that there really isn't when you're Lying or not but I mean you're feels Like there is it well every time I Changed something it wasn't gray area I Just committed I just committed fraud at This level you're either you either meet The guidelines or someone has massaged It in such a way that they've committed Fraud that's it and there's now there's There's tons of ways where you can Commit fraud And they just can't figure it out does That make sense like I I mean I've

You've committed fraud and it's like They've look at the entire they look at All the documents and they double check Everything and they know there's fraud In here they just can't find it just Because they can't find it doesn't mean Doesn't mean it was exactly doesn't mean It wasn't fraud as part of this you did A lot of fascinating things one of the Things you did you talked about creating Synthetic People meaning uh creating fake Identities what do what does it take to Do that to do that well so your credit Profile is made up of your you know your Your at your name date of birth your Address and you know your social Security number and you know those are The kind of you know and then there's Other things where you Work that sort of Thing but what people don't realize is There's so many people out there that Think that the credit bureau is already Know who you are right but the truth is The first time the credit bureau has Ever heard about you was you told them The first time you applied for a credit Card you they created a credit profile At that moment prior to that they had no Idea so the first time you apply you Give them your your full name date of Birth social security number and your Address and they create a credit profile

And they say hey no record found of this Person he has no credit nothing probably Got denied well what I realized through The course of because eventually I ended Up Leaving that one company and I opened my Own mortgage Company when I opened that mortgage Company I Was I was on the inside does that make Sense like I wasn't a I wasn't just a Broker that was sitting out with Everybody else and would periodically Come in and ask questions or would call Underwriting and but really didn't Understand what was happening and what Exactly what the underwriting guidelines Were now I was actually talking to the Underwriters and you're you're talking To the um to the owners of The Lending Institutions and the banks and you're Talking to all of the account Executives And now it wasn't just Eagle lending I Was talking to there were 40 different Account Executives coming in on a weekly Basis trying to get us to sign up with Their lender and they're on the inside Telling you coming in showing you uh Programs and saying look if your Borrower is you know Self-employed we don't ask for this or This we just ask for them to say they're Self-employed like liar loans You' You've heard the term liar loans okay um

No doc loans where they don't ask for Any documentation if he's got over like Let's say a 700 credit score and he says He's been a plumber and he works for Himself then he's got over a 700 credit Score he just has to say he's worked for Himself for over two years and they Don't ask any they don't ask for any Documentation he's got the money in the Bank he's got a 700 credit score says He's been on the job for two years he's Self-employed we're going to raise his Insurance rate by 1% And and he's got you know that's it he's He's got the loan so but you start to You start to know how things work Because I hired a bunch of Brokers to Work underneath me and when they would Get Caught I would get the phone call so I Get the phone call from the owner of a Bank or a lending Institute you know A Lender and that lender says hey Matt we Got a problem I'm like what's up he's Like he's like listen we we caught a Fake W2 I'm like what do you what do you Mean yeah your your broker soand so sent Us a file and this person had there's Two fake W2s and we're assuming the pay Subs are fake and I'm like are you Serious how how did you even catch that And they go oh well here's what we did We checked with Sunbiz.com you know sunbiz.gov which is

The Secretary of State's website that Registers corporations and we checked And the tax ID number didn't match and I Now I know every W2 has to have a Matching uh tax ID number for whatever Corporation uh issued it so there's a Sequence of checks they do to detect Fraud on different documents like W2s And then you're slowly learning slowly Yeah exactly what's the process for Detecting I mean I had a pretty good Understanding anyway yeah but so I'm Starting to learn that understanding Yeah so I'm putting these things Together and I remember one time I had a Woman come in and she came in and she Had perfect credit she had like 7 50 Credit scores I mean it was perfect and She came in and uh one of the Brokers Came in and said hey man he's can I show You something I was like yeah what's up He he goes look he said I've got this This Woman's W2s here I said okay I Looked at him and he goes here's your Credit report and he goes here's the you Know application this is the this is the Social security number I went all right And he said this is the social security Number on the W2 and I went okay keep in Mind you go to get a car loan or credit Card they ask for these things so and he Was like and I'm really shocked he even Noticed it I probably might not have Even caught it but he they were

Different and I went really and he goes Yeah he said um so I I did you know she Just brought him in you know she's here And I was like oh bring her in here so She came in sat down and said listen Here's what we just found and she was Like oh okay you know what I don't want The loan I I just I go no no no no I Said listen you're getting the loan you Got a 750 credit score like I don't care What we have to do we're getting you the Loan I just want to know what's going on Mhm how are how did you how did you get 750 credit scores under this social Security number when clearly this is Your real social security number you've Been working for this company for 10 Years and your credit profile says it's Only like three years old and I was like What happened and what she told me she Did was she had been she went through a Divorce she had been married for 10 Years used her husband's I mean his Surname for 10 years so she has no Credit under her maiden name MH but when They got divorced she switched to her Maiden Name um because when she pulled tried to Get anything in her in her um husband's Surname it was denied bad credit so he Had bad credit their credit went bad so He switched to her she switched to her Name and a friend told her if she needed To get her electric or anything turned

On she could use her name and use her Daughter's or son's Social Security Number which was like a four-year-old Kid y so she used that and it went Through she had to put a deposit down But it went through at least wasn't Denied so that went through then she Went and she applied for an apartment With That sure enough it went through she had No credit but they said you don't have Bad credit so she said once she moved Into the apartment she then started Getting these preapproved credit cards So she she goes but I knew I had applied There using my son's social security Number let's say so she started filling Those out and sure enough she got a Credit card and then she got two and Then she got a pre-approval from Ford Motor Credit she went and got herself a New car got approved she'd been making The payments ever since she has 750 Credit scores she thought she'd try her Hand at buying a house in his name in His social security number And we caught it and she got a house in That name we we closed it I just was Like wow like this is great can I ask You a question about that because it Seems like she's able to pay for Everything right so while this is highly Illegal is it unethical is it Like it's it's unethical in that it's

Messing with the system on which a lot Of people Rely but it feels like there's some Aspect of the system that's broken in That it doesn't give people like her a Second chance she could have claimed Bankruptcy and then 2 years later listen Two years out of bankruptcy you can go Into Bank of America and get a Conventional mortgage Assuming you have perfect credit outside The bankruptcy you have the down payment You make enough money there's a whole Bunch of you know a bunch of uh Underwriting guidelines you have to meet But that's possible but you're right for Instance she wasn't getting an apartment Using with her bad credit she wasn't Getting her utilities turned on she Wasn't getting any of those things done So getting your life back on track is Just harder it's extremely hard so There's a temptation to take the Shortcut and the shortcut is often going To be illegal right and she stumbled in Into it but she Basically explained it to me and I I Mean I don't think she had walked out of The of my brokerage office before I went And I just started making up you know Names and I think I went I went and into Our file cabinet and grabbed some People's uh 1040s which we had you Know their tax returns and looked up

Children's Social Security numbers and Just grabbed some random kid Social Security numbers and their name and went And pulled them and sure and you know But I changed their date of birth to be An adult pulled it and sure enough it Came up no file found you know it didn't Say fraud alert or fraud or anything They didn't say mismatch this mismatch That didn't say anything it just said You know no file found well Then we went and we pulled applied for a Couple credit cards using a child social Security number and then we went and Pulled Our Own Credit Report and sure Enough it didn't say no no file found it Just said that there had been two Inquiries Applying for credit cards so I was like Wow like that's a credit Profile so that turns into Me going to Social Security and calling or calling Social Security and trying to get them to issue Me Social Security numbers to adults That had never had a social security Number issued to them I need to get Social Security number to give me a Clean social security number but I Called up and of course you know I'm a Novice I don't really know what I'm Doing so I call up and I say hey uh yeah I was I'm uh never had a social security Number issued and they were like how old

Are you and I was like I'm 31 years old You know and they were yeah that's not Possible do you have a driver's license Uh yeah you have a bank account yeah you Have a Social Security number uh bring Your driver's license in and we'll we'll Pull it up okay well that's not going to Happen hang up call back hi um my Son is seven years old or three years Old and he he had never had a social Security number issued oh okay was he Born in a hospital yes well he has one He has one go ahead and uh get your son Come in here no I'm not doing that hang Up call back so I called back probably 10 Times and Eventually uh someone said I I kept Altering it kept altering what I was Saying till I got to the point where I Was saying Saying my son was born with a midwife Not in the hospital and the pediatrician Told us that we needed to go we need to Get Social Security to issue a social Security number and they would say well He should have issued it but that does Happen sometimes so bring your son in And we'll you know you can fill out the Paperwork we'll have one issued you First we'll check to see he never had One issued and if he hasn't we'll issue One and so then it turned into my son is Out of the country and I need this and

Then that turned into oh I'm sorry well How old is he I was like um you know He's three and they go well I'm sorry if He's over the age of 12 months old he Has to come in hang up the phone call Back my son is 10 months old he's out of The country born with a midwife never Had a social security number and then They go oh okay that's fine just get his Birth certificate and a his shot record And you can come in fill out the Paperwork we'll get issue you a social Security number and that's what I did so I figured out how to create a birth Certificate you know I ordered the Security paper you know when uh where You make a copy it says you know void if Copied so I ordered had to order a bunch Of that and I went online and figured Out how to make a a fake birth Certificate it was great too because Like the county actually they give you a A blank form and then they actually show You what it looks like filled out like a Handwritten one filled out so I knew if He was born this day he got these shots U two months later he got these shot six Months later he got these shot so I just Filled it out I even had to order a a Seal so you have to have a seal that Says like Hillsboro County vital Statistics or Richland County vital Statistics or something and I couldn't Get anybody to make that so I changed it

To like Richland County Office of Virtual um records and then I took like 220 grit sandpaper and and and hit it Over and over and over again to wear it Down and then I State you know I did the Embossment on the on the corner and you Know I printed it on the security paper Embossed it nobody looks at those things You could see Richland County you know You you could kind of see that and Really they just grab it and they go Like this this is what you realize after You when I started getting started Getting uh driver's licenses issu issued By uh by the State DMV right the state I I figured out eventually it was easier To just go into the DMV and have them Give me a a driver's license then Actually make one so but you notice they Would just grab the thing they'd feel The form and go okay like they don't Even look at it so which is upsetting if You put as much work into these Documents as I am for them to go okay Yeah that's good sit over there I felt Like going like hey bro like take a look At this this is artwork yeah but they're Looking for the lwh hanging fruit of Crappy fraud right yeah this stuff was Right through so okay so so birth Certificate gets you a uh Social Security number so it's it's it's Interesting because you've also you You've done a lot of different

Approaches to um creating synthetic People there's homeless people involved So sometimes it's grounded in real People or real Names and then you're right like some Part part is fake some part is real Sometimes and sometimes it's completely All fake right cuz now I have the name I Have the social security number and What's great is they mail you what's Even better is you get then you get to Pick whatever name you want you know Because when you pick your child's name He doesn't even have to have your last Name you pick any name so I would pick a Name and I'd just say oh my wife's last Name is this if it they question it Which they never did but you know I've Got a social security number and then I Would go apply for credit cards and i' Get denied of course but they would all Offer me a secured credit card so I I'd Then fill out the secured credit card And i' send them send the bank the money And they would give me a secured credit Card for $500 $300 1,000 whatever it was And then once you start making the Payments I pulled the credit and a Credit profile shows up saying that this 31y old Man with a social security number that I Know was issued you know a couple months Ago has three three credit cards they Don't even say secure they just say

There's like this credit card is $500 it Was issued by Bank of America this one Was issued by Capital 1 this one would So I've got three of them but I had no Credit Scores so at that point I kind of kicked Back and waited I just kept making Payments and I remember thinking to Myself I'll bet you they don't that the Credit bureaus don't generate credit Scores for at least a year and I was Like God this is going to be a year-long Process and while that was happening I Started other I was starting other ones Cuz I figured at least in a year I'll Have a bunch of these secure you know These um we call them like Phantom Borrowers but now they call them Synthetic identities so at least I would Have these synthetic identities and Maybe I could do something with them but What happened was at six months I went And I randomly pulled the guy's credit You know the person's credit and 705 credit scores 705 701 695 I was like Oh my my you only needed a 620 to borrow To get a 95% loan from the bank so I was Like oh my God this is in this is Amazing sure enough a month later the Other ones I had started all of them Bam Bam Bam so what do you do with a phantom Borrower like what how do you make money On this so I think most people if you Were just like a scammer a fraudster you

Would you would probably just get credit Cards and maybe build up that history or Maybe try and borrow a personal loan uh Which is limited you know it's personal Loans are used to be you used to be you Could go To uh an FDIC insured bank which borrows Money Those you know the personal loans they Lend out at the max $115,000 you know so You could do that so you can go through This whole process creating a fake Identity getting a card paying it off Building up credit and then you get $115,000 at the end or right you get 15 Maybe you know if you want to keep Making the payments you know if you Could wait a year you could probably get 15,000 uh maybe you could maybe get 20 30,000 and a bunch of little smaller Ones you know you get 7500 cuz I did I Did there was a $7,500 from City Bank You know $5,500 from American General so You maybe get what 25,000 you know maybe $30,000 in personal loans maybe you can You could you could then apply for you Can maybe get another 20 or 30,000 in Regular credit cards you know 10,000 Here 8,000 5,000 and then you go to the Lower department store cards and you go A Home Depot you get a th000 you get 500 So it ends up being maybe you can get 50 60,000 maybe if you really good you Could get up to 80 or $100,000 in credit

Cards and personal loans if you really Knew what you were doing but per person Per identity per identity but I had the Ability To to leverage that perfect those Perfect credit profiles against Properties and I mean ultimately that's What I end up doing and and so each one Of those identities was Worth you know a few million can you Explain how that works so uh to leverage Them against property so how does that Work with the mortgage so what I did Eventually I mean this would like is Down the road but you know I mean at This point when things are just my whole Life had kind of gone off the The Rails I was on federal probation and and So what I did decided I was going to do Was start running a scam a much larger Scam and what I was going to do was it I Was going to start flipping properties Right like buy houses cheap fix them up And sell them there's an area of Tampa Called eore City so I was going to start flipping Houses in eore city and you know I Thought okay I can I can buy these Houses for you could buy a really crappy House at that time for 50 $60,000 let's Say 50 and then you could put $25,000 Into it in renovations you could Renovate it for 25 and maybe you could Get an appraisal for a

Hundred so I thought what I could do is I Can I can buy these houses renovate them And sell them to you know regular People but I also had been working on The synthetic identities And then I thought well or I could just Sell them to synthetic identities and Then I wouldn't have to dump 25,000 into It right and these guys are perfect they Have perfect credit I can provide W2s And pay stubs because by this point I'm Manufacturing Businesses so I've got I've got I've Incorporated businesses I've got Websites for the businesses W2s payub so These guys have these guys look perfect So I figure I'll buy these properties For 50,000 sell it to these guys for 100 Maybe I'll pocket 40 or 50,000 I don't Really have to do Anything but that seemed shortsighted so I thought what' be even better is that If I did a little bit of Renovations and Then I sold it for much higher maybe I Put 10,000 clean up the outside of it Because these guys don't care what the Inside of of the property it looks like You know they they're not they don't Exist So and then I but I can't how am I going To get an appraisal for $100,000 well do you you know how Appraisals work okay so the Bank sends

An appraiser out or at that time you Could provide an appraisal they can Review it so they'll do what's called a Desktop review they review it they Review it On um on the computer they never go out To the property or they send someone out They they call that you know it's like a Field review they send someone out and They just look at the house they don't Go in it though so I have to clean out The clean up the outside of the house so What I did was but the problem is is if Your house is you're trying to sell that House for let's say 200,000 the other Houses they have to pick three Comparable sales in the area that are Also going to support a a $200,000 sales price well there's no Other house is selling for 200,000 near This house so I thought if I want to get These things apprais for 200 250,000 I have to have comparable sales And that appraisal is going to be Reviewed So what I did Was I started I went out and I bought This house for 50,000 And I recorded the sale at 200,000 So when you buy a house for $100,000 you pay $700 in dock Stamps but if you pay the extra an extra 700 bucks the sale shows up for

$200,000 I'm buying these things for 50 So I'm paying $350 and I'm just paying An an extra $1,00 50 so I'm so it ends up being you know $1,400 but the but the sale shows up at $ 200,000 on a house that's a a crack House I bought for $50,000 now I go I trim the trees we mow The yard we clean up the porch we put The porch rail on maybe we paint it real Nice we black out all the windows you Can't see inside um but from the from The curb it looks great and I get an Appraisal so I do that with that house I Do that with another house all within a Mile so I buy four houses knowing I can Use the all there's a subject and three Comparables for all of them so the first Thing I did is I bought four houses for 50,000 60,000 40,000 and I recorded the Values at you know 210 200 190 so I get an appraiser to come out There he appraises it he said of course He says it's horrible but there's Comparables here now of course it is in Bad shape and he says it's in bad shape But I I go ahead and I correct all that So I correct it so now if you if you Review the appraisal and you're in California or even if you drive your car Down your the appraiser comes to the House and looks at it from the street it Looks fine but the truth is I've got

$60,000 into this property and you're Appraising it for $200,000 so the bank's Ready not they're not going to lend 200 But they'll lend 190 so the bank is Ready to lend This synthetic Borrower $190,000 on a house that I have $60,000 in so I walk so I schedule a Closing and we close on the house and I Walk away with $60,000 you know and and the thing is Like the problem was is by the time I Got to this point I knew so many people In the industry I nobody had to really At that point show up although I've had People show up for the synthetic inds And signed for them almost all the Closings nobody ever showed up I just Showed up and said to the title uh to The title agency and said hey my Borrower he's at work right now he can't Make it can I just take the file and I'll have him sign all the documents at His work and I'll bring them back he's Like an hour and a half away from here I'll be back in two or three hours They're like oh wow that man Matt thank You so much and they would give it to me And I'd go sit in the parking lot and i' Sign all the documents and i' wait an Hour or two and I'd come back in and say Here you go how how are you able to keep All this in your mind because you have To not slip up in any of these

Conversations it's pretty easy for me to For me to keep Them everything in the correct category Does that make sense like it's it's I'm Not great at a lot of things but this I Was very good at but well there's these Phantom people that exist and they were Becoming real people in your mind is Then like you're able to tell good Stories with with those people right Like because if you're talking to the Appraiser if you're talking to the Everybody in involved well keep in mind The appraiser almost never meets the Borrower never not even like 99.99 99% Of the time they never meet him but you Have to talk about them yeah so I guess What I'm asking is you're able to Converse fluently about these synthetic Identities yeah they they all had Different jobs they all had all the jobs Were basically they were all on the job For 5 years they were all was a lot of There's a template yeah Exactly but I got it yeah listen all Matter of fact almost every one of them Had the same birth date you know so Because I you know who knows um there's So it it yeah it wasn't difficult and Keep in mind the a lot of the the Brokers barely ever meet um meet the bar They call in on the phone but it didn't Matter anyway cuz I'm walking and saying I got a slam dunk deal for you and

They're like oh wow Matt you got the W2s The pay dubs you've got all the you got All their uh their rental history you Have everything done it's perfect thank You so much they're happy to do it hey I Print up the docs and I'll have them go Sign it great wow thank you you know Assuming they didn't already know about It almost everybody involved in this by The time I was done was involved there Was probably 15 or 20 people that all Knew what was going on the full of it They knew the full depth of it yes yeah At yeah maybe not 100% everything but They definitely knew this is fraud and They were still going along with it yeah Yeah keep in mind that even when I give You an Example one of My you know let's say and this happened With almost all of them was he would buy Five Houses so the guy but what happens the Basic design was I I buy the Houses I record the values Higher And this person buys all five houses Refinances them he ends up borrowing a Little bit over a million dollars in his Name uh then of course then I go and I I Get um personal loans from several Banks I get credit cards I run up all of his Credit cards by this point I've got 10 $20,000 worth of credit cards in the

Guy's name so the guys are all worth Like a million million and change well Once I stop paying you start getting Letters from the collection companies Right from the banks you know then they Sell them off so after about three Months you're getting tons of letters And what I would do Is I would take my borrower's name I Would go online and I would find or I go In the newspaper and I would Find I would find an article about let's Say like a 12C car pile up you know so There's you know there a huge accident On I4 it's very dangerous So there's a 12C car pile up and someone In the accident was life flighted to Tampa General Hospital I Would cut and paste that Article and I would just insert my Borrower's name into the article saying That you know Brandon green was life Flighted to Tampa General Hospital is Currently in critical condition I would Then print that article out on newsprint I didn't make a copy of the cut it up Make copy of the newsprint highlight his Name and I would write a letter from Brandon Green's fictional sister to the Collection companies saying several Months ago my brother was in a horrible Car accident he is currently they've got

The article they have the highlighted Name he clearly was in in this uh in This accident he is currently in a coma And the doctors say even if he wakes up From the coma he will never work again That you know so you might as well just Foreclose on stop writing less letters And take the houses back and that's all They're looking for is is is a reason at This point even if they look into Brandon green they can't figure out if He's a real person or Not because he's got a social security He's got and everything went bad at the Same time he's got multiple rental Properties or his primary residence all Of his credit cards went bad everything Went bad we have an excuse we have a Letter that happens people get divorced They lose their job they get an Accidents it's reasonable when they look Into it all looks legitimate even if They ordered another appraisal by this Point it's not four comparable sales or Three or four comparable sales by this Point it's like 10 15 20 30 40 50 cuz I Kept making more and more of these guys What was your just to almost like a Tangent what's your thinking process There's a lot of cleverness going on Here so like uh the the car pile up as a Solution newspaper and you mail it Are you sitting there alone and thinking Through this like how do you come up

With that idea this a it's a very Interesting a very clever Innovative Idea so at first I I thought about Making like a a fake death certificate He died you know but I thought I don't Know like what if you know like some of These places had like you know uh you Know primary mortgage insurance like What if the primary mortgage insurance Like what if they try and claim cuz he Was dead or like I don't know I don't Know that side I'm like I don't want to Do that I want to do something that's Semi- verifiable and third party it's Like a third party telling you this is What happened I thought well like the Newspaper you know and you know or do I Claim bankruptcy and I've done that I've Gone and got the bankruptcy forms right You can go to the bankruptcy court and They'll give you forms to mail to all of Your uh creditors and you mail them they Stop contacting they wait to be no Located by or notified by the bankruptcy Court but my fear there is you know uh Nobody's ever going to notify them like I'm not going through bankruptcy for one Of these guys so it was like this is a This is a better bet than just writing a Letter saying I'm going through a Divorce my wife's keeping those houses That's her problem you know you could do There's lots of things you could do but To me this was they're not going to try

And how do you how do you shut it down Without him dying how do you shut that Down this is how you shut it down he's In a coma he'll never work Again he was in a car accident here's The proof he can't even write you I'm a Sister I wrote you the letter it's a One-time letter that seems to um tie up All Exactly you know I can only know the ex Exactly how that you know what sparked That is as much as there were so many Other avenues that I could have gone That I was I just didn't know I but you Were thinking through all those Different Avenues are you mostly Thinking Alone I mean you know I had guys that I Was bouncing ideas ideas off of there Were other guys that were involved in The scam you know everybody I think that Scam ended up making like I think the FBI said it was like 11 and a half Million or something and and you know But but there were so many other people That were involved in that scam that Were you know this guy's getting 50 this Guy's getting 20 you know 177,000 20,000 25,000 and you know the we're just doing It constantly and so the bank would Foreclose on that property they'd take It Back they' put it back on the MLS they Put it back on the MLS for 100 for

200,000 it wouldn't sell then they drop It to you know 150 wouldn't sell then They drop it to 125 130 wouldn't sell They drop it to 90 and somebody buy it For like 90 it wasn't worth 90 but by That point that whole area had we' done So many houses at that point the whole Area shot up and the the FBI said uh we Did 1009 houses I don't think that's True But wow we we when I end up leaving Tampa after that scam falls apart and The FBI shows up Forbes came out with an Article whatever six months later and They Said that the ebore City ZIP code was One of the top 20 fastest growing um Appraising areas in the country and you Know everybody was like oh that's mad Cuz this place is a dump like this is is A horrible place like this is and I Remember one time I had talked to a guy You know years later and he was like ah All the comparable sales have dried up Like when you left there was just Nothing even close to 200,000 you mentioned right before uh Telling the story of this elaborate scam That you were on federal probation how Did that happen so I mentioned that I I Own the mortgage company yes right so I I had started a mortgage company I had Maybe a dozen guys working for me and And there was fraud you know like I

Would say it wasn't all fraud but Whatever 60 70% of it was fraud that That was going in there and from the Outside of that that business it looked Very Legitimate you know we were an FHA Approved lender we were a VA approved Lender we did conventional probably Signed up with 40 or 50 subprime Lenders Um but but there was a considerable Amount of Fraud and you know it kept Getting you know it it became a game Right you know it you start you I Started getting just more and more Creative like like I said every time I Would get away with something like you Become emboldened by it it's like nice You know like hey the underwriter's Looking for this and looking for this And you sit there and go man so that She's you know that's what am I gonna do What am I you know what we could do we Could create create our own bank what Yeah here's what we're gonna do we're Going to go on like how do they know if This Bank exists these people are in California or they're in New York like They don't know so what we're going to Do is we're going to go online and keep In mind this is 20 You know this is 2000 2001 like this is The Internet's in its infancy still right so

We figure out I remember GoDaddy I think Had just come up with a site where you Could build your own website like how Cool is that so I go online with a buddy Of mine and we create something called The bank of ebore you know we cut and Pasted things that we like from other Banks and we got a 1 1800 number you Could call or a 186 whatever it was and You could call it and it would go to a Voicemail and so we set up this bank and Then I ended up making bank statements Which by this point I already had been Making bank statements to to prove Someone has their down payment because a Lot of times people they have good Enough credit to borrow 95% or 90% but They don't have their down payment so We'd raise the purchase price high Enough to cover their 5 or 10% down Payment and we would bring their down Payment for them or we'd have the the Owner of the house bring the down Payment for them and then we would have A check cut out of the closing statement To a construction Company that I owned and we get our Money back so they get into the house For 100% financing or 110% some of them Turned into 130 we want to pay off their Car give them an incentive to Sign um they don't have still don't have The money to buy it so we're doing all Kinds of insane things well at some

Point Remember Gretchen Zas my um my old Manager yeah the original yes she came And worked for me for a short period of Time and then she and her husband went And opened their own mortgage company Which you should have known it was going To be fraudulent from the bgo because it Was called creative financing it was was Yeah create uh CFM creative Finance no Creative creative was the name yeah yeah Creative was in the name oh boy um so It's really on the nose so she uh she's Doing very Well and and we became very close by the Way we we go on vacation went to Puerto Rico together um I'm I got married at The time I got I was married uh our kids You know play together we babysit we go To each other's parties we're close We're good friends and she's got her own Mortgage company she calls me up Periodically and ask me hey can you make A W2 or hey can you make me a pay stop Sure no problem we're friends that's What fraudulent friends do so you know If I needed somebody to to verify rent Or verify somebody's um rental history Or employment she had cell phones she Would answer that sort of thing for me Well what ends up happening Is um she gets in trouble she starts Doing fraudulent loans for some guys you Know and these guys are doing what's

Called a cash back scam so they're They're getting like a half a million Dollar Loan on a house that's Worth $300,000 so they're getting a uh They're buying the house for whatever 600,000 it's really only worth 300 350 but she happened to be in an area Where she could get it the appraisal Jacked up so they they buy the house They get2 $300,000 Back and um it's it's a it's a straw man Scam right it's a cashback straw man Scam so this a real person that's buying The house he's got perfect credit but He's willing he's willing to let to ruin His credit to get a couple hundred Thousand in his pocket so he never has Any intentions so it's not a synthetic Identity it's not a stolen identity he's A straw man he's a fake kind of a not a Fake person but he's just a straw man He's a standing so he stands in he signs A paperwork he buy buys the house they End up getting 230,000 well this guy Buys like five houses so it's a two3 Million they've lost five 6006 700,000 and these guys never even make The first payment they just let them go Into forclosure so the bank immediately Investigates and realizes this is fraud So the FBI comes in they grab Pete and Gretchen she has to hire an attorney of Course and she doesn't get thrown in

Jail or anything they just come to their Office and they they tell them their Invest tigating them they know what's Going on and they they want to talk to They're like look we want to talk to you And you're going to be indicted okay so She comes to me well actually Pete came To me and said look man can you Refinance our house and get a 75,000 out To pay our attorney I said no problem Um Gretchen gives me W2s pay subs fake The whole thing's fake I get her I Refinance I get a second mortgage on her House $75,000 they pay their attorney Their attorney immediately says you need To wear wire on this guy like he just Got you $75,000 you know I don't know How you got $75,000 but the attorney Knows something's wrong because the Attorney's like they just your whole Mortgage company was just shut down There's no way you could borrow $775,000 So he's like this this guy's doing Fraudulent stuff and she says yes of Course he is and he says you need to Work with the FBI wear a wire against This Guy so she calls me one day and says Listen I got to talk to you the FBI is Asking questions about you and I go what And she goes yeah I was like um meet me At the pizza place down the street so You don't come in my office cuz Everybody knows she's been indicted like

Everybody in her office quit when the FBI the FBI shows up and gives you a Business card they announces they're the FBI everybody quits so I said do not Have do not don't don't come here Because they already know they're Already concerned so I go and I meet her And Pete and we sit down at the uh at a Restaurant you know a little Pizzeria And I sit down and she starts telling me That the FBI is asking questions about Me and I'm like what are you talking About like what are they asking she goes Look they came in they took all our Files and like I was like I didn't know Any of this I'm like when did this Happen she's like yeah they a couple Weeks ago and they they and they have Some of your files cuz I had closed Several loans for my wife at the time we Were buying rental properties my wife Didn't have a job so there there it's All fraud but I couldn't CL I could not Close those loans in at my mortgage Company because I own the property so I'm selling those properties I bought Properties renovated them and sold them To my wife to get around something Called seasoning seasoning says you have To wait 6 months to a year to refinance At the market value otherwise you if you Want to refinance that's fine but you Have to refinance at the price you Purchased the property at but I bought

These properties for 80 or 100,000 Renovated them sold them for two 300,000 To my my wife who got a very got didn't Even get a big mortgage we were just Trying to kind of get around around a a Um a guideline so but my wife was not Working and I provided W2s and pay subs So when she says all this she says yeah They're looking at at your the loans you Gave me at at your wife's loans and I Went oh my God I said well you didn't Tell them that the W2s were fake did you You didn't tell them the pay stubs were Fake did you you didn't tell them that The down payments were you didn't tell Them that we were married did you I mean Just absolutely buried myself and as I'm Telling her This I was like I I I I was like I I Kind of caught myself and I okay wait Wait wait a minute look okay here's what You're going to tell them you're going To tell them you never met her she Called on the phone like I start trying To devise a plan that will answer their Questions without getting my wife in Trouble or them in trouble and if nobody Cooperates the whole thing should shut Down you know they it doesn't go Anywhere there's no way there's 's Nowhere for them to go if everybody just Kind of stonewalls Them so as I'm saying all This Gretchen says Matt we can't lie to

The FBI and I go what are you talking About you're already lying to the FBI I Mean you you you know you you've been Lying to the FBI mean I just refinanced Your house and before I can really say Anything Pete jumps up her husband Stands up and he says we've never lied To the FBI we may not have told them Everything but we've never Lied and I thought Like what what who like who are you Talking to like I know that's not true So you're not saying that for my Benefit so I was just I kind of look at Him and I'm like what and I just I Remember looking down and and this may Mean nothing but both of their cell Phones were right next to me right and I Remember they were probably just wearing Wires but I just remember thinking those Cell phones are microphones they Probably weren't but I remember thinking Oh wow and I just I looked at and I went Wow And I said well I hope you're going to Get something for this and she Immediately starts crying and she says Mt I'm sorry I I have a kid I can't go To jail do you have kids at that point Yeah I like I have a kid like I have a Kid and I was like wow I wow what have You learned about friendship from that Like loyalty oh yeah this no there's That's a that's it's sweet that must

Have hurt it's cute I mean I love the Idea of it you don't think that no I'll Tell you why So I go back to my I go back to my Office I remember I told her I said tell The FBI agent to call me on the phone do Not come in my office so I go back I'm Still trying to figure out how to Weather this right I go back I sit Down phone rings uh my secretary comes In and says hey agent I'll never forget A guy's name agent Scott Gale with the FBI and I was like okay he on the phone And she's standing there I was like Close the door like get out and close She's Like so get on the phone he asked me if I'll come down I said yeah absolutely Let's schedule it for next Tuesday you I Put it off four or five days um I go to My brother-in-law immediately who's a Who's a uh a lawyer and he says oh yeah Yeah I don't really tell him exactly What's going on but I tell him this is What's happening kind of and I'm I may Be in trouble I need a I need a federal Defense attorney I don't even know what A federal defense I don't even know the Difference but he said you need a Federal defense attorney it's the FBI so He we go on a couple we meet a couple Lawyers I end up getting a lawyer I give Him like 75 grand um and he started to Have me convinced initially he had me

Convinced I was probably going to go to Jail for a few years but really that's What they kind of do to justify you Giving them $775,000 right and then but The more I thought about it that you Know and and and read he gave me the Guidelines that that supposedly I had I had um you know the the fraud that I Had committed and what the guy and the Guidelines that overs saw that um and I Read it and I was like I'm not really in Trouble here because I'm looking at a Felony but I'm not going to go to jail Because there was no potential for the Bank to lend to lose money So because I bought the house with like A hard money loan and then I renovated It with my own cash and when I sold it It appraised at 250,000 my my uh ex-wife borrowed like 180 so there's plenty of of equity if The whole thing had gone into Foreclosure they still would have got Their money back and to be honest by the Time all of this happened there was only Like three of the three properties it Was like five but we'd already sold a Few and at this point we' just sold Another two there's like one or two Properties left so we're selling at that Moment we were selling them so I I was Like no I kind of argue with them but Then he wanted 75 grand I gave him 75 Grand and then he comes back and he says

Good news there was no potential fraud So I can get you three years now here's The thing here's here's what I always Kind of look back At when I first got went into his office He Said he said listen you haven't been Indicted yet I spoke with the FBI I Spoke with the US Attorney they believe and they've been Told and he said look they didn't tell Me exactly what they have but they said With the the evidence that they have on You based on two confidential informants That it's you cannot go to trial and I Was like right of course I knew that and I was like okay he said But he said you haven't been indicted Yet and they are fairly certain that You're running um a mill right a fraud Mill over there and you guys are Churning out fraudulent loans now they Can't come and they can't come and rage Your office and do anything about it yet Because so far they only have you but Here's what I'm saying is that he Saidi Can keep you from being Indicted it's called um pre-trial it's a Pre-trial Intervention where we go in and what We'll do what we'll do is you go you Work you go in talk to the FBI you go Grab a bunch of your mortgage broker Most egregious

Files grab them bring those files to the FBI go work with the FBI they will Indict them And you will not be indicted and I Said which I I kick myself to this day I Said absolutely not I'm not going to Snitch on them I'm not going to Cooperate I'm not going to you know I'd Seen The Godfather you're not supposed To cooperate you're supposed to be loyal I'm not going to do any of that and you Know and and so I say all of This where you know looking back like I Would have if I could go back back in Time I would have gone into our weekly Meeting with a dolly and I would have Walked in front of everybody and scooped Up two or three of the file cabinets and Put them in the back of a truck and said Listen you guys are going to be talking To the FBI soon I suggest you get Attorneys and I would have dri driven Off but I didn't I thought no be Loyal you know don't do that and and What happened Was when my when the other thing Falls Right when the next scam falls apart Every one of these people go to the FBI Like they're not even coming to them These guys are going to the FBI with Lawyers I want to cooperate I want to Tell you what Cox did I want to help I Want to and I'm think like I never had To get indicted to begin with so you

Think that most of these people from Your experience are going to uh Sacrifice all integrity that's a funny Word sacrifice sure that applies to this But That's they're going to sacrifice Friendships and loyalty for just to save Their own ass yeah that I only had one Person that did not talk to the FBI I Had one person that every time the FBI Or the Secret Service went to that Person's door she said don't come to my House again I don't have anything to say About about Matt I have nothing to do With any of this talk to my lawyer and This happened over and over again and That's my ex-wife she's a gangster so Are there people in this world you Trusted or you still Trust I you know the the problem Is eventually I Cooperate And at the time I didn't want to Cooperate I didn't believe in Cooperation but after seeing how many People cooperate and the way the system Is set up I think that my understanding Of loyalty Is vastly more realistic now and I think That if you're committing crime if if You're absolutely like the things I did I did a bunch of scumbag things you know I mean I'm not killing people but I'm Doing scumbag things I'm lying cheating

Stealing that I'm a thief you know you Boil down to it that's what I am so you Can't go around behaving like a scumbag Dealing with scumbags and then expect Those same scumbags to Suddenly abide by some kind of a street Code and not roll over on you you know And it does happen but it's it's like in The it's in the 90 percentile of people That cooperate 90s something percent and People cooperate when they're not even Looking at any real Time so if you're looking at 30 years And and especially after going to prison You go to prison and it's like the this Guy's a standup guy over here he got 30 Years he could have cooperated against All of his codefendants but he Didn't nobody comes to see him his wife Divorced him you know his kids ended up In foster care his you know his his Friends are are are cleaning out his House nobody puts money on his on his His books nobody comes to see him nobody Answers his phone nothing he took 30 Years most of those guys turned around They end up getting indicted for other Things years later they Cooperate and the best thing this guy's Got going for him is that he can walk Around and say well he's a stand-up guy That guy's going to the same halfway House as me he's probably he's going to Do 30 years where I'm going to do 10

Standup guy meaning he never snitched Right and so everybody's seeing This example and saying well I'm going To snitch then but it it sounds like What people are doing is they're uh Signaling virtue signaling Like there are they would never snitch And actually do secretly I mean what is It I I remember I talked to one of the Cosos at the prison one time and he said Uh he said I said I said 50% of the Guys here snitched he goes there more Than that he said but listen he go 100% Of them are lying about it he said so do You he goes there's nobody here that's Going to tell you they they snitched Nobody so there's guys tons of tons of Them that cooperate if 8 90% of of um Defendants cooperate you know you start Doing the math and you if you you ask 10 Guys in prison all of them say I didn't I didn't cooperate I didn't cooperate I Didn't cooperate like okay you ask a 100 I didn't cooperate nobody's going to say I cooperated does that break your heart A little Bit that people backstab each other like This it it does it does But you know I have such a low opinion Of people you know what I'm saying like I don't expect it's not that I I don't Like people it's that I just don't Expect anything of them you know I don't Expect you to look out for me you know

There was a time when I did I thought I Look out for you you should look out for Me but I just don't expect that anymore See but I think Humanity flourishes because there is a Lot of people out there that do the Thing that is difficult to do in terms Of Integrity that may be but these these Aren't people with Integrity these are Criminals if these were decent human Beings and all of them will tell you Well why'd you do that oh you know I was A drug addict or I I needed the money Well if you were if you were a decent Human being you would have gotten off The drugs you would have gone and gotten Three jobs you can work 80 hours a week I've done it you can work 84 85 88 you Can work 90 hours a week you can do that Oh I did it for my kids no you're lazy You could have worked three jobs for Your kids instead you decided to sell Methampetamine well I was I was addicted You could have gotten off me it wasn't Important it was the easy way out you're Not someone with Integrity so for you to Sit there and say hey I'm going to act Like a scumbag but now I got caught or You got caught and I don't want you to Tell on me well you're a guy that robs Banks you stick guns in people's faces You kidnap people you torture people you Sell drugs you're not you're not a moral Ethical person but you want you want

Everybody else to hold up to some Ethical code while while you're robbing Grandma that's not right like you know So you know I I get I get the whole Omar Code you know and there was a mo there Was a time when I was you know Delusional enough to believe That But you know after you go through after Going through it no and after going Through it multiple times No I have to really think about that and I deeply appreciate your honesty on This okay I I think Um I Mean there's all kinds of criminals in This world and they all have all kinds Of stories and your story is one Of I don't know if it came from Desperation versus a Love of this kind of Game right like it it wasn't part of it An attraction to the the creative aspect Of this of breaking the rules when Nobody else can and you figure out a way To do It I think I think initially it was I Needed the money like that's the first Thing you know you say oh okay well I Need and if you ask most gu oh well man I needed the money you need the money But and then I I I definitely needed the Money

But then you get $50,000 in your bank And then you get a 100 and then it's 200 And then it's half a million and then It's a million and what the hell are you Still committing fraud for you've got Half a million or a million dollars in The bank or worth of real estate or You've you're making $10,000 a month Just in rental income why are you still Committing fraud so it turn I think it Morphs Into the creativity in part for me and And too it was a chance for me to prove To everybody how smart I was you know I Mean it was done out of desperation Initially and then it just turned into Pure narcissistic arrogance look at me Look at how I can do things that nobody Else can do look how smart I am I just Walked into Bank of America handed them Seven documents that were all fraudulent And they cut me a check for $250,000 like wow I'm amazing you know And guess what they're never going to Get their check and they they won't know Even know where to start to try and find The person because they're looking for a Phantom so you know and you feel great I Felt great I used to say I I felt like I Felt like James Bond I felt like 007 it Was amazing and you know and it did it It feeded my need to feel important you Know even if it it it was it was even if That was a lie cuz all that success was

Just a Lie well no you were good at it it was Good at it but it was it's not it was Illegal it's not like I'm Elon Musk you Know what I'm saying like there's it's Not like you're an ex I'm an exceptional Human I'm an exceptional human being at A horrific thing at at committing fraud Well the question is how many people are Getting hurt because uh initially the Thing is initially nobody got hurt That's the thing nobody ever lost any Money directly like I didn't go and say Give me $50,000 and I ran off with your Money like I wasn't doing that and that Was a great Justification but at some point and We'll get into that you know I take off On the run and people do lose money I I Didn't take that money directly and for Some reason in My you Know sick mind or whatever the case may Be that seems like a distinction to me That makes me feel okay is that I never Said give me 300 give me $10,000 and I Ran off with it but I put people in a Position Where I damaged the credit or damaged the the Title to their House and they had to go get a lawyer to Fix that you know and and so that they Had to go pay a lawyer $110,000 so I

Absolutely caused that person did I said To me to you're a victim and I owe you That money and it was a shitty thing to Do because even at the time I was like Oh they'll make a couple phone calls It'll be fine it wasn't fine and if I Had really put any thought into it at All I would have known it it's going to It's going to really affect these people And those people had done nothing Wrong with the exception Of trusting me they rented me their House or they owner financ their house They made the mistake of bumping into me And now they owe $10,000 $20,000 You know and and I'm sure a ton of Anguish so what happened when you were Caught that first time so I was caught I Got three years probation you know I Took the probation what does that Involve initially it Was it was such a slap on the hand on The wrist were you allowed to still Practice okay so I wasn't I had to I Couldn't own the mortgage company Anymore mhm that was a good question cuz Like you would think you know wouldn't It be great if I could keep on going um But what they said was you know you you Have to forfeit your your brokerage um Your broker's license and your brokerage Business license and what I did was I I Transferred my brokerage business License to a guy that essentially bought

My Business they allowed me to work as a Consultant in the mortgage industry you Know cuz they went you know they go my My lawyer goes to the judge and says What else can he do so Um and so I have a a friend nam's Dave Walker he was a CPA he came in and he Bought my business and he paid me like $9,000 a month and that covered my bills Uh my wife and I got divorced so she's My ex-wife And I I don't know what to do right like I don't I'm I could you know and I Always say you know I could have like You know you look back and it's like I Could have claimed Bankruptcy um I could have moved into my Parents spare room you know something Like that but you know cuz I had I had I Lost everything in my divorce um I had Huge child support payment um you know Not that that has anything to do like With my my ex-wife like I absolutely Signed up for that like I wanted to pay That um but it was it was it was a chunk Of change you know so we're talking About a couple thousand a month for you Know for child support um she got all of The apartments that we had we had about A million million and a half dollar Worth of Apartments which isn't a lot Now but that's probably five or6 million Now so she got all the apartments so she

Got everything so now I'm sitting here Like I got I can't be a mortgage broker I can get my $9,000 but I have to help This guy run this company train people Do that sort of thing so what I decided To do was I was going to start flipping Houses legitimately or not well Initially I thought about doing it um Legitimately right but at the same time I was also in the middle of figuring out How to make these synthetic Identities so I'm making the payments Every month remember two months in three Month no no credit scores no credit Scores no credit scores and I'm also Saying I'm going to go I'm going to Start buying houses renovate them sell Them so to the the truth is we actually Renovated probably one house completely I remember it was on 26th Street we Renovated the house completely on the Outside in and the inside yeah outside Inside it's done it's good okay great um Me and me and this guy actually Dave Dave Walker the guy that bought my Business so we renovate it and it just So happens at the same time I go to pull Credit one day and wow 700 Plus credit Scores and I Went we don't have to sell this thing at All like we just we just I can sell it And put it in this guy name and let him Refinance it and so that's what we did We ended up I ended up selling it to

This synthetic identity do you remember The first synthetic identity the name The first one was a Joel cologne yeah And then I started getting creative Because the ones after that I started Naming so I had like Joel cologne and an Allan Duncan but then I I do you Remember the movie Reservoir Dogs so I I started naming the Characters after guys in the reservoir Dog so I I had a I had a a James red you Know I had a like a Michael White a Lee Black MH I had a um William blue David Silver uh Brandon green so then I start Developing these guys now I thought oh Forget those those normal names I'm Going with these with the reservoir dogs And I thought I was so cute too you Think in retrospect that was a mistake It was so stupid that was just it's There's so many things so many mistakes I made I Mean within the fraud there are mistakes I made but you know other than just the Overall committing fraud but it was just Like I thought it was so cute and then You know you get in front of the judge And the judge is hearing about the Reservoir dogs and Mr Mr Green and Mr Black Mr White Mr this Mr that and he's Looking at me just like you jackass like And you know what am I saying I'm like Yeah I thought that was cute um you know But nothing's cute so you know plus I'm

Making fake Banks what's the purpose of The fake Banks well sometimes you have To have your down payment in the bank Right so you have they have to they want Three months worth of bank statements to See that hey he's got his $50,000 in the Bank and then the more the more Properties you buy they want start to Want to see what's called reserves they Want to make sure that you can pay all Your mortgage Payments if this guy loses his job can This guy maintain all these mortgage Payments for the next six months and see They do that and they think you're going To go you know oh no he can't do it they Go well then we won't lend it well when They do that to me I go of course I do Of course he's got it let me send you Over the bank uh bank statements oh you Want to call the bank call them so There's a phone number there's a website Yes you can call we'll get on there I'll I'll do the Whole you know and uh hold on okay uh What's the name again oh do you have the Account Number hold on you wait a little bit you Know you come back oh okay I got to here I I can't tell you the exact amount Right now but what is the what what was His balance last month and the Daya oh Yep y That's it exactly okay thank than You click would you do different voices

Or would you be no I've done different Voices or I just have somebody else do It you know Gretchen would have done it Or um or one of the Brokers Susan would Have done one of the Brokers that worked For me or you know Kelly or Johnny moon I I have so many guys and you know they Just get on the phone they do it because They're all doing something fraud and We're all working together so hey I need You to call this guy I need to call this Guy and verify this and say what I'm I'm At the bank okay I'm at the bank okay Cool and they call back and do this feel Like an organized system or was it it More improv just like dealing with the Different situations the government Would definitely say it was organized I Would say it was you know you're a bunch Of you're just a bunch of guys you know To you know it's you're joking around With everybody and you're you're helping Each other and it's not like everybody's You know kicking up the Tommy yeah you Know so so and then all these new Puzzles come up and you figure out way To these puzzles you go in and you say Hey I've got I've got this loan I need To get this loan this guy's trying to Buy this house and I need loan that Looks like this where can we go and by The way they cannot they cannot order a Copy of his tax returns so you don't Want to have to sign What's called the

4506 so they're like okay listen so and So's got a program that you know and you Go back and for but you have to have This much in reserves but you got the Bank right yeah yeah I got the bank I Could do that you know so you you go in And you throw it out there to five or Six guys and you're going to come up With an answer so you're on probation Here just uh to Self-reflect did you start start doing This while on probation because of the Money or because it gave you Meaning God I you know I mean part a big Part of that the reason is I I did not Want to move back in with my parents and I didn't want my father to see me Struggling and I didn't want him To it Was my success he had no idea My Success Had been the first time he'd ever really Been proud of me does that financial Success yes at which point when was the First time you told him you did Something he was like you could sense Him being proud oh when I became a Mortgage broker when I when I became a Mortgage broker and I went to work for The company and what we're talking about Within a week I got a client three days Later I got a client a week later got a Client two days later got a client like I closed four loans my first month and My dad was like well well how much money

Are you going to make and I'm like oh I'm charging this much this I got a Point on the back I got this I boom I'm Thinking I'm going to walk home after Taxes like 10 11,000 Jesus God Almighty you know are You Ser well well we'll see don't start Counting your chickens before that you Know and and then you know two whatever Three weeks later four weeks later you Know boom I got a check it's like $9,000 Or something or and then you know the Next month it's 12 and the next month It's 16 and you know then they make me a Manager and you know um it just he Didn't know any of it was illegitimate No he thinks he thinks my son he's Brilliant you know he's great he's Wonderful I I had you know was certainly Not proud of me prior to that um but you Know my dad was athletic he was Extremely bright I mean Brilliant and I was a kid who had to be Put into special schools who barely Gradu uated High School who ended up going to college and Getting a degree in Fine Arts because I Was never going to be able to get a Degree in Business it wasn't going to Happen so when I graduated college I Remember with the the degree in Fine Arts he said the best you'll the best Thing you could do with that is maybe You could draw caricatures at Disney

World you know what I'm saying which Wasn't a compliment but it wasn't like Hey you could Draw um so yeah he you know and then I Turned around and I I tried to go to Work for State Farm insurance which is Who he worked for he worked for them for Like 40 something years and I failed the Aptitude test so then I went and worked For another insurance company and I was A an insurance adjuster but I couldn't Keep up with the workload then I end up Working construction I'm still barely Paying my bills you know that's Basically where my dad felt like that's That's you know he was polite to me you Know we was we were you know cordial but Yeah I wasn't I I I think he felt he Deserved a better kid so well when you When you started doing mortgages that's When he was like of course he was like This kid's got something I'm driving I'm Driving a new I got it just pulled in in A new car and I got a I just bought a House that was you know four or five Blocks away from his house from where I Grew up from where he lives you know Lived at that time you Know six blocks away from where my Sister's married to her lawyer husband Mhm like I'm doing pretty good and then Within 3 months we bought you know we're My new wife we buy a um a quadplex and Then we're buying a Triplex and another

Quadplex and a 10 unit and a duplex and Another duplex and a quadplex and it's Like what the hell is going on this guy Is blowing up he's going on vacation Here and vacation here and you know so He you know and so when when when the FBI comes in they indict me and I I take The three years probation like I mean The probably the worst thing in the World you know other than going to Prison would have been just having to Just sell everything and go move in and Start over and sell used cars not that There's anything wrong with selling used Cars but I just felt like you know I Just didn't want to disappoint him any More than I already had so I thought I'm Going to flip houses and then I'll start Maybe a development company so I'll buy Some vacant lots and all this and that The problem Is these houses I'm buy them for 50,000 If I fix them up and sell them maybe I Make 20 25,000 and then you got to find A a a qualified borrower it's very hard To find a qualified Borrower that wants to live in ebore City back then it's I still think it's Rough but those same houses are going For three and 400,000 so you know I'm Buying houses I got I got to get Qualified borrowers I have do all the Renovations it's it's a nightmare you Know and if I you know looking back back

It's like okay well then you got to bite The bullet it's just what you have to do I didn't want to do that I didn't want To do it whether it was laziness or I Don't know you know I just thought I'm Good at this I'm going to run I'm just Going to start running a scam I'm going To figure out how to drive the prices up Buy the houses for 50 record them at 200,000 and then have these synthetic Identities buy all the properties Refinance them pull out the cash make Six months worth of payments let them All go into foreclosure and that really Really started working Well very well I had one time where I Had a guy it was James red the synthetic Identity was James red and he had bought Two or three houses and there was Somebody at the office who was friends Of somebody who knew the title company Where we were closing the Loans and he called that her her name Was Mary and said Mary this guy James red like Cox is Doing something Shady James red does Doesn't even exist she goes and looks at The file her last couple files and and She realizes of course obviously like This guy never showed up she remembers Cox picked up the files like and he's Saying he doesn't exist so she freaks Out she calls the mortgage broker Mortgage broker calls me mortgage broker

Calls me up and says listen Mary said She's not closing the next loan unless James red shows up and I went wow that's A that's a tough one and she's like okay So what do you want to do do you want to Go to another Title Company like we're Supposed to close in like three days two Three days I said well he's going to Have to show up then I said I'm I'll Figure it out like give me a couple days Give let me figure this out and she's Like okay well I don't know how that's Going to happen he doesn't exist keep Mind at this point I don't need IDs I Don't need a real ID I mean I I can I Figured out how to kind of make a real ID right like I could make one I could Take sandpaper and sand off the Information on a regular ID and then I Would print The the corrected information in reverse On a piece of um transparency and I Would glue it over there and you could Still see the Holograms and stuff it Actually worked pretty good I don't a Cop's not going to it's not going to Pass mustard with a cop but somebody at The bank like I was able to go in and I Would open a bank account with It Well So one of the things I had done when I Was closing these loans was I would go Online and I would

Pick you have to pick a photo of Somebody right to put on the on the Driver's license right so I'm not making A fake ID for all these guys because I Don't need a fake ID for all these guys Not with my picture on it but I need a Fake I need I need a copy of an ID but I Need a picture where do I get the Picture so I go to Hillsboro County's Arrest website and I would find people That I knew that had been Arrested and so I found a guy Named uh Eric tamargo who had been Arrested he had like I don't know what It was the DUI or domestic violence I Forget what it was but there was a Picture of him so I print out the Picture I cut it up I paste it onto uh a Driver's license and I make a copy of it You know for for James red that's what I've been giving the title people when I Would close I'd sign all the documents And I'd leave them that copy so that it Looked like they made a copy for of the Of it and then they would notarize all The documents even though they never Seen this person they have a copy of his Driver's license everything's signed Cox Said he signed it it's good notorized Here's your Check so what I do is I think let me see If I can get Eric to do this he's been To I knew he'd been to prison before so I call up Eric and I remember one of my

Buddies like he's never gonna do this And I was like I I think he will I think He will so and that's how and that's Really that kind of like you think what Do you think let me try let me call him I don't know bro like that's the kind of Conversations you're having like it but Really looking back love to hear the the Opener few sentences that you have with Him I got I can tell you exactly what I Said cuz it's burned in my mind he comes In so what Eric was doing at that time He was actually working for us he worked For somebody else but periodically we Would you know we' buy a house and we'd Call him up we'd say hey can you your You and your boss can you guys come over And trim the Trees of this house trim All the trees take all the crap in the Yard clean it up they go yeah sure no Problem cuz that's what he did work for Like a handyman service so they would Come and they clean it up and they do That so I say can you come over and he Was like yeah so he comes to the office Whatever a few hours later and he comes In the conference room I said hey Eric What's going on and he says uh he says Hey you know how's it going I said yeah I said um listen I said I I'm I'm going To tell you something I need a favor He's like okay cool he's like what is it I said you know all these houses we've Been having you go and clean up he's

Like yeah we had that you painted that One house you did this yeah yeah yeah I Know I know right so here's what we've Been doing I've been buying these houses For $50,000 recording them for $200 and Then I have these fake people buy them And I explain I just lay it out for him And he's like Wow that's he's like that's bro That's ingenious man that's some that's Smart like w you know I was like okay I Said yeah I know that's great so here's The thing I said the title company who's Been closing some of these loans we have A closing in a couple days she wants This guy James red to show Up and I need someone to show up as James red and he goes wow he goes who Are you going to get to do that and I Was just thinking just like you're not Understanding I'm not confiding in you Because I need a friend you know so and I looked at I said oh I was thinking you Might do it he was Like he that's a big favor I said it is A big favor I could be in a lot of Trouble and I said I I know and he goes Well wait a Minute he goes I can't go he said you Have to give these people a driver's License you said the driver's license is You were you you were using mug shots She you said she's closed a couple of These she already she's seen this guy's

Picture and I go she has seen his Picture I said the thing is for James Red I pulled the mug shot offline of you When you were arrested a couple years Ago and he jumps up and he goes you and I oh I said Eric I said Wait a minute I said hold on hold on I Said listen I said I only did that Because I knew if it came down to this Moment you were the only person that I Knew that could pull this off that have The balls to walk in and do it And he sat there and he Went yeah you're right you're right and I mean I I bro I I I couldn't believe he Fell listen this guy would beat the Breaks off me he was he's like 510 5'11 He's boxed he's a big guy yeah so you Know it's like I've weathered that part Of the storm and he sat there and he Goes right right and he goes well I'm Not doing it for free I'm not doing it For nothing I said no bro of course not I mean what you know what he's like You're making a lot of money I said well Keep in mind a lot of that money goes Back in the prop property it's not like We're walking away with you know I think I said like tens of thousands we're Really walking away with hundreds of Thousands it's not like we're walking Away with a bunch of money or you know It's you know we got to put that we got To buy more properties we got to keep it

Going we got to make the payments you I Know but still I could get in a lot of Trouble I said I understand bro I go What do you want and I remember thinking If he asked for more than like 10 or 15,000 like I'll just I'll do it myself We'll just change title companies and We'll go and I'll I'll do it myself and He sat there and he went I want $500 and I went $500 listen I almost Started laughing I mean I was like I put My hand over I was like $500 yeah it's It's it's going to take you 30 minutes And he's like he's like I don't care bro I get in a lot of trouble I was like oh Well yeah I'm not paying you now you got To sign first and he's like oh you know I'll sign I'll sign I know you're good For it I but he for 500 bucks I made a Fake ID for him he goes in to the place He signs James red Comes out what was even you know what Was funny about that was when we walked Into the title company we're sitting in The in the lobby and Mary comes walking Out she looks at me she goes Mr Cox I Don't know why you're here she goes I Told Kelly that was the broker she goes I I told the broker that I'm not closing The loan unless unless um James red Shows up and Eric stands up on que and He goes I'm James red and she was Like and she goes hold on a second she

Runs in the back comes back with a file Opens it up looks at the picture and She's like oh I'm I'm so sorry uh give Me five minutes I'll I'll uh I've got The file I prints up the docs he goes in Signs and when we're there she's passing Out the checks 5,000 here 25,000 here 35,000 here 7,000 here 6,000 here so he Sees all these checks and I'm like oh I I got that I the construction company no No no I have that I'm I'll take care of That I'll take care of that so I get all The checks and I leave we go sit in my Audi and uh he sits down he's like bro There's a lot of money a lot of that Money goes back in the properties Eric And he's like ah still bro and I said um And I counted out 500 bucks but listen a Week later we had another Closing so I he comes in I said hey bro He hey what's going on and I said uh I Need you to do the the James red thing He goes yeah I've been thinking about That I did that way too cheap I said I Get it man well how much do you want What do you want And I'm thinking if if it's if it's more Than 10 or 15 I'll do it myself and he Sits there and he Goes I want $1,000 I got $1,000 like oh my God so uh I gave him $1,000 and we he did another one and um But by that point it was like five or Six we done five or six with that guy

And after five or six plus the credit Cards plus you know all the other things Like their credit scores start dropping You know if it was 700 now it's down to Like 600 and at 600 you couldn't really Borrow enough to make it worth it it's Like and I have other people in the Wings waiting so um you know we would Just we I'd go out and I i' run up the Credit cards and and pull as much money Pull all the money out of the out of the Banks and close the accounts and then Stop paying and you said a lot of people Knew so he was one of the people and That he was one of the people why do you Think nobody said anything I well I mean I think everybody was making money the Appraiser at that time I had an Appraiser eventually I ordered appraisal Software and I just start doing the Appraisal of myself like why give this Guy 500 bucks um so so you were doing The appraisal yourself how's that Possible how's that is there a check Against is there there is that's funny Nobody ever questions that you actually Have to have a license to get the Appraisal software so I get an Appraisers that we're working with I get Her License and I I I uh create a um an email address as Her uh so it was a synthetic appraiser Right it was a real person but I end up

Ordering the appraisal software by By um emailing uh it was called Alamo Alamo appraisal software so uh I end up Emailing them as her and they go well we Can't give you we can't sell you the Software unless we we need a copy of Your license boom here's your license so I send her the I send uh then the License and then we paid for it with a Credit card you know you could go get Like a Green Dot card you go put 500 Bucks on it or a th000 the software was Like 1,500 bucks or something so you Pick give like back then you know a long Time ago so 1,500 bucks they mail it to Us and now I've got the software so now I can you know I can do the appraisals Myself what stops you from appraising it Not for 200,000 but even more there's no Comparable sales so no matter what you Sent to the bank they're going to look At it like they're going to to have a Their appra in-house appraiser is going To do a a Desktop review he's going to Go online he's going to check to make Sure all the apprais all of the Comparable sales are sold for what you Said they sold for are the same square Footage were built what the pictures Look like where how far they are he's Going to double check everything but you Know he's some guy who's on salary and He does you know whatever 40 or 50 of These a day or something it doesn't take

Them long and so it's cheaper that way Where we pay for the appraiser appraisal The whole thing got it so everybody's Getting paid right and so at at this Point I'm I'm doing that right you know And I'm getting caught periodically can You give an example what do you mean Getting caught I'm living in Tampa Heights which is right next to ebore City in Tampa right so this is all these Are all like little suburbs of Tampa and They're all built back in the 1920s right 1890s 1910 1920 so I'm I've I bought this 8un building I renovated It into a Triplex I'm I mean I'm driving An Audi I'm dating a a a woman that I Should not have been dating like I mean I don't know what she was thinking um so I'm you know I'm going on vacations like Everything Life's good so but every once In a while you know like where you know Where things happen you get a phone call Hey this is what just happened and I one Time I got a phone call from same broker Kelly Kelly called me up and said listen We got a problem this Was I want to say this was Allan Duncan this Was one of the first ones that I had Done right we used him but uh and so he So she calls me up and says Listen Allan Duncan never made his first Mortgage payment and I had a friend of

Mine or one of my Codefendants when we Closed on that Loan we both got checks for whatever 40 Or 50 Grand keep in mind we're also Buying some of this money is going into A business account we're buying property We're bu so it's not like I'm pocketing Hundreds of thousands of dollars or even You know even 20 or $30,000 on every Closing I'm more like I'm getting 25 10 20 and this guy's getting 10 and this Guy's getting 15 and then we're to Taking 60 and we're putting it into the Business account we're buying a bunch of Vacant Lots or we're building some new Houses so we're trying to kind of take All this and turn it into to a Development company M um but we still Have to pay our bills so you know my Buddy's got to go to he's got to go to Amsterdam at least for two weeks you Know right he's from Belgium that's you Apparently have to do that at least once A year so uh he he was so when I gave Him his check the check I said Look you're going to make the Pay Here's Like 20 grand or 15 grand but you got to Make the payments on this thing for the Next six months he was no problem I said Okay so she calls me up a month and a Half later and says hey Um Alan Duncan did not did not make his First payment and I went uh oh my God

And I I he was actually renting the Apartment downstairs for me so I run Downstairs and I open the door and I go Bro I'm like did you make Duncan's Payment and he turns around he's like is It do and I was like oh my God so I run Back you know I grabb the phone he Didn't make it he didn't make it she's Like okay well here's what's happening The account executive is calling they've Got the file and it was called it was Southstar Bank southstar bank had has it They reviewed it they've already been Ordering documents they they they're Saying that this guy there there's a Problem they are it's it's it's falling Apart like the whole thing's falling They they know something's wrong but They don't know exactly what it's just Just something suspicious that she Didn't tell me that on the phone okay Like she she's saying there's something Wrong they're freaking out yeah because The account executive didn't really know She just got a phone call saying hey Have you ever met this this broker did She meet the guy who is the guy he Hasn't paid we're calling the cell Nobody's answering and really most of This was was my buddy Rudy's fault he's Just not doing any of this stuff he any Of the things he's supposed to be doing So we go to the office and I call Southstar Bank uh I get the secretary

And I said look I need to talk to Whatever the guy the big guy was it was One of them was like the president and One was like the somebody else anyway Vice president so I said I need to talk To so and so the vice president and she Says I'm sorry he's in a business Mee I Said well listen tell him this is Alan Duncan like you need to go tell him it's Alan Duncan's on the phone right now now I'm assure you he wants to talk to me And she's like all right hold on and I Mean like 20 seconds L you know speaker Phone hey Mr uh Mr Duncan uh this is so And so and uh you know I'm here with the Uh with our lawyer and the president of The bank and our head of fraud we were Just discussing you and I was like okay Um I understand that you guys are uh I Haven't made my first payment I said it Actually came back in the mail I had the Wrong address that was completely my Fault and I apologize I said but I can Get you a cashier check today I will Overnight it no problem hope that's Going to be okay I say they said way We're way past that way past that I said Okay um what's what's the issue and they Were like I mean look to be honest I Don't think I'm talking to Allen Duncan I don't think there is an Allan Duncan He's like I mean your social security Number was issued a couple years ago um The we called the bank um and and this

Was why we had gone with like South or Sun Trust Bank right so it was A real Bank mhm so it wasn't our normal Bank and they called they don't they Don't have any record of you I was like Well I've never been happy with Southstar bank there if you know it Sounds like a banking error um and They're and they're like yeah I don't Think this isn't cute he says I don't Think I'm talking to Alan Duncan right Now right and you were terrified Terrified but you have to be playing it Cool I guess I mean I know what am I Going to say no you're talking Matt Cox Like I can't say that like I'm just got To keep running with it just like okay Well look you know and he's like you Know we called the DMV this you know They don't have a list for you in the in The you know in their website uh we Think that the uh you know we don't Think you exist yeah you know we're Still waiting for a phone call back from Who so so and so and so and so and I'm Just like oh my God and I said um have You called have you called the Authorities yet and they were like no we Haven't but once we put our file Together we will and then the head of The fraud department they said oh by the Way Mr I forget his name but the head of The fraud department is worked for the FBI for like 10 years or something or 12

Years and I and so I mean I'm just like And by the way the appra uh the broker Is there MH and my buddy Rudy is there And I mean they're he's pacing the room She's in tears crying like there and I'm Like okay well fellas I said where's This headed where's this going what are We doing and and they so they're they're Kind of chuckling and joking about it Mhm and I remember being like thinking What's the deal Like it's weird and I said look why Don't I Just let me just pay you back they said Ah we we we'll get the money we're not Worried about I said you don't seem Worried about the money about getting Any of the money back like don't why Don't you just let me I'll cut you a Check I can get you the money back like What do I I owed him like 150 or Something I forget exactly it was Nothing I'm like I owe you 150,000 let Me cut your check for 50,000 and they were like no no you know That's uh uh we'll get the money back When we foreclose on the property and That's what I was like Oh they think the property is worth like $195,000 or something and I went oh I Said I understand okay I said do you Have the appraisal in front of you and They were like yeah and I said open it Up I said take a look at comp number one

That's owned by a guy named you know Lee Black M comp number two you know is Owned by you know whatever David silver Whatever the names were and I'm like you Know like black silver red I said I am All those people and I said let me tell You what I've done and I tell them just Lay it out boom bo boom boom Boom I said so you can call the FBI but You're not going to get all your money Back or you can let me give you your Money Back and we can let this we let sleeping Dogs lie the whole thing goes away I Apologize you know I had every intention Of making all the payments it's a glitch You caught me no my bad and so these Guys are just like oh my God like now They're they put me on hold they're Looking through the file they come back And I remember at some point we go back Forth back forth and finally they come Back and they said listen you still have The money I said yeah well first they Come back they threaten me oh well when The F we give us to to the FBI you and I Said that's not true I said the money Was deposited into a bank account it has Since been moved the bank account bank Account has been closed it's been Removed in cash that money is gone you Will never see that money I will be Cutting you if I pay you back at all It'll be from another account and so the

FBI agent ends up saying he's right even If we caught him red-handed the Likelihood that any of these funds will Be ever be recouped is is zero like There's almost no money's ever recouped And so we end up uh they put me on hold Again they come back and they go how Quickly can you get us a cashier Check and I go like that day I go get Them a cashier check overnight the Cashier check they never called the FBI They never did anything now at that Point we actually ditched that whole That uh James or Allan Duncan I remember At that point we went to the mall ran up All the credit cards and just threw Everything away and walked away because It was shot you know that whole that guy Was shot I think we borrowed whatever $800,000 or 900,000 in his name so with The banks it's really really all about The money that listen when I go on the Run I got one where I was caught so Red-handed It's it's insane how how bad it was and And listen that's not that's nothing I I Got caught by um uh Washington Mutual One time I was caught by Washington Mutual where we had done six owner Occupied Duplexes so if you say you're going to Live in a house you can get about 95% Financing but if it's an investment Property you got to put down 20% you get

About 80% financing So a buddy of mine who was a sheriff's Deputy we had his wife By I'm going to say six owner occupied Duplexes saying she lived in every Single one of Them well you can't owner occupy six Dwellings like it that's fraud now now Granted her W2s and pay subs were Correct but she didn't put the down Payments down even the down payments we Didn't put down we actually got cash Back but months later we the they called The a lawyer From um Washington Mutual ends up Calling uh the mortgage broker and Saying that they ended up with two of The owner occupied duplexes Because Washington Mutual had a credit Line extended to one of the lenders Who'd lend the money so it actually was Washington Mutual so it was a couple Months later when they went to sell sell It and a you know they packaged them Together and sell them they realize we Have the same customer with two duplexes Side by side both owner occupied this is Fraud so she comes in she tells me oh my Gosh this lawyer's on the phone this is What happened I'm like oh wow this is Horrible I end up getting on the phone With him we have a huge we have a Conversation and I'm like you know he's Like look you know this is a big deal we

Could call the FBI I'm like look who Knows who was involved in this maybe Somebody on your side was involved maybe Somebody on my side I don't know what my Mortgage broker did I'll deal with her On my own why don't you just let us Refinance the properties not only did we Talk him into refin allowing us to Refinance the properties he gave us a Reduced um a reduced balance of what we Owed him because we couldn't we couldn't Borrow enough to pay them off so they Took like a $20,000 hit just to Refinance those properties never called The FBI never did any was absolutely Fraud MH I had I had a broker one time We got called with over a million Dollars in loans that he had done that Were Fraudulent Pinnacle Bangor which was out Of Chicago the owner called me and he Was like look your mortgage broker did This like it was a bunch of uh canceled Checks they were fake canceled checks so They looked like they had run through The bank for the somebody's rent mhm But they hadn't does that make sense Like you pay your rent they deposit it It goes to the bank and they've got all The numbers and everything well I had a Bunch that were blank that all you had To do was fill out your your borrower Information and then you cut and pasted His full his name and his address at the

Upper leftand corner you make a copy of It it looks like canceled checks we had 24 of them well my one of my Brokers was Using them for all of his files like Even if the person really had a rental History he didn't want to order it he Just did this it was easier faster yeah Yeah just an idiot wow so they catch a Million dollars worth of loans they call Me up and then they caught another Million but they had already sold them To Household Bank so while I'm on the Phone with the the owner his name is Gary and we're talking he's like look This is what we found this is this this Is what happened and I remember I said Um Gary at the end of this conversation If you think I'm cutting you a check for A million dollars I said I just don't Have it you don't have it this was when I owned the mortgage company and he says Uh No I what I'm I'm asking you for your Word that if any of These come back on us they're in Florida They're in your area you'll help us get Rid of the properties you'll we'll Foreclose we're going to have to resell Them I don't want to be flying down There just help us get rid of them I Said absolutely of course no problem I Said what about the I said well what are You going to do with them he goes well They're going to be a part of a a

Package like a $3 million package we're Selling to Household Bank the other ones They had caught had already been sold The ethical thing to Do is to contact Household Bank say we Will buy those back we are going to take Care of it's not what happened in fact Gary flew down a couple weeks later took Me and several of the Brokers not that Broker but several of the Brokers out to Dinner had a few drinks and he openly Admitted he's like look I don't care if All the loans have fraud in them as long As they don't come back on me that's What I'm concerned about CU there's a a Clawback clause for one year he's like Like so if they can perform for one year I don't Care that was it how many people in the Industry do you think are operating like This um and by like this I mean in the Aforementioned gray Area I would say there's probably after Like the like after the 2008 financial Crisis I would say it cleaned up Consider Ably but I would say at this point it's It's just as bad as it ever was and and Keep in mind these a lot of the loans That caused uh the Problems were like you know they called Them liar loans or or um you know you Know no no qualification like no qual Loans right no

Income um well those loans are they Exist again like there are subprime Companies that are doing that again they Know I don't think they call them Subprime anymore they call them so they Got some other name yeah rebranded yeah They've rebranded a little bit but it's It's happening all over Again it just seems the whole the whole Real estate SL banking system is very Prone to this kind of corruption I mean But but how how can you fix it like if If a lot of the things they fixed a lot Of the manipulation they fixed but if You tighten it too much then the average Person can't get a loan like you you you So you you know and and the thing is Some of these loans sometimes changing a W2 you know should that person have Gotten in that into that house no he Shouldn't have he didn't qualify um but He makes all of his payments so it's Like is it a fraudin loan yeah but it Performs so you know I think that I Would say that I forget what the FBI Statistic was it was like 20% or 30% Prior to the 20 prior to the the Financial crisis is like 20 or 30% of Like bank loans they were saying contain Some kind of fraud even if it was just a Lie you know if you want to cut 30% out Of the out of the you know that that's a Ton that's a ton so you're on probation And you're doing these you're almost

Getting caught you're almost getting Caught and you're doing these really Large scale Scams how does it get to the point where You're on the run so doing multiple Scams right so it's not just that I'm Doing the scams with the uh the Reservoir Dog scams right I'm not just Doing those guys I'm also Creating other Identities because I've got other people That are involved they they want to do a Scam MH so this chick I was Dating um she wanted to uh she wanted to Run a scam so I set up a scam it's semi Complicated but the the bottom line is She ends up stealing a real person we we We steal a real person's identity I have A real person's identity we get a Driver's license in her name open up Some bank accounts go rent a piece of Property in her Name and I transfer the deed or the deed From the property out of the real Owner's name I transfer it into her Stolen identity mhm we then refinance The house like three or four times and So she starts going to these different Closings and she's her name is Allison And she's pretending to be a a a Puerto Rican woman named Rosie de Pre um Allison has brown hair and blue Eyes Rosita Perez clearly doesn't yeah So Allison when when we make the ID she

Dyes her hair Black curls it a little Bit um and gets the pictures pictures Taken of herself But before she goes to the first Closing to get a check for like $100,000 we've got like three of these Scheduled um She she changes her hair color like that She dyes it back like like a dirty Blonde and she goes to the first closing And she gets a check a check for 100,000 Let's say I don't know what it was like Either 95 or 105 whatever roughly $100,000 she gets a check at the closing They give it to her we then go to the Next closing well at the next Closing the the title Person has her sign all the documents But she's looking at her like Something's not right looks at her ID Makes a copy of the ID looks at it and Says this this doesn't look like you and She's like you know you don't look Hispanic and she's like I'm half Hispanic what do you what and she's like You don't I mean but keep in mind the Photograph was her MH so she's saying This doesn't look like you but it's her Granted her she had you know the curly Hair a little bit but that's it so Allison is like it's me and she's like Look I'm not going to give cut you I'm Not gonna give you the check yeah I'm

Going to let you sign the documents you Know we can get you can get the check I I'll let you know so she goes gets in my Car she say yeah listen there's a Problem so we're driving down the road She explains it to me I realize you know Okay that's done it's over we're not Going back she's like what about the Other closing no no no more closings We're Done and and I you know and it was Probably more of a yell screaming and Yelling like what the hell did you do Why told you not to change your hair why Would you change your hair like that When she came in like the day before and I was like what did you do what did you Do and she's like I change my hair What's the big deal it's still me sure Enough you know and that's A like it's not that I knew that that Was going to happen but why tempt fate How'd you meet Alison like uh she was a Mortgage broker okay and and I had done Some fraudulent she need she worked for Another mortgage company sorry I she Worked for another mortgage company she Couldn't get a loan closed the owner of That mortgage company called me and said Look we got a loan we need it closed and I said great and I when guys would call Me I'd say great I'll come pick it up I'll give you a $300 or $500 referral Fee no no it's a couple $1,000 we want

To close it well if you then close it Well I can't close it we need a W2 or we Need this we need that we can't figure Out how to do it so I go over there and Typically I convince them just give it To him it's not going to Close she was she was she was you'd have To see this chick she was gorgeous she Was gorgeous very flirtatious made me Feel like I was thin and handsome so Um like she gets whatever she wants um So I'm like okay look here's what you do And I explained to her do this do this Do this send it here it'll close and she We Clos it well then she starts calling Me right hey how's it going we go to Lunch next thing you know we start Sleeping together she realizes what's Happening she says I want I want in on This so now we do the Closings we're on our way I say look That check's dead what she goes what About the other the other one I go no no It's all dead we're walking away now That was easy for me to say because for Me I had money she's going through Divorce she's broke you know like none Of this did I take into consideration at The time by the way to me it's like nah That's dead we're done uh we we'll start Over again well and she's to her in her Mind she was about to make we were Getting probably that was a million Dollar scam she was about to end up

Getting you know whatever it was half or Onethird of half a million dollars in The next week now she's got nothing So um she says look let's at least cash This One and I had a buddy named Travis Hayes who had been you know we actually Were we've been friends since high School we were like best friends right Really close friends in high school we Were still Close Travis was learning a scan scam This one hers was in Clearwater his was In Orlando so I'm all I'm getting on all Over the state at this point right so He's running an Orlando scam that's Already yielded half a million maybe More MH he's still pulling we're still Refinancing properties right so he's About to close on another half a million Dollars wor her properties he's got a a Bank account that's open she says let's Give it to Travis have him deposit it in His account he's already pulled out like 300,000 out of the account and she's Like shouldn't be a problem I was like Um no no no and she goes let me call him She calls Him I think I called him and and I Explained the situation he you think It's okay and I said no I don't think It's okay I don't think it's okay at all And he's like no it's not a big deal um Just give me the give me give me the

Check so I give him the check he goes he Deposits the check they say they're Going to hold it till it clears you know That was kind of a thing back then Um it takes I don't Know I don't know how long it took 5 Days six days whatever it was he was Supposed to go back and it would have Cleared and he would have been able to Start pulling money out and so I call Him one day cuz Allison's bugging me so I call him and I go hey where you at he Goes I'm actually on my way to Orlando and I said oh okay see but let Allison know I'm not getting any money He said the bank manager called and said That because the check was over $100,000 they have to witness me Endorsing the back of the check or they Had to see my something right and for me To come in I oh I said something's wrong Something's wrong don't go to the bank Um what do you think's wrong I think the Cops are waiting for you that's what I Think's wrong and he goes no the cops Aren't he go man I'm in the parking lot Right now I just pulled in the parking Lot there's no cops I'm like they're not Going to be in squad cars like and he's Like no he said it's fine you're Overreacting bro and I'll never forget What he said he said you're shaking like A little girl bro calm down I got this I'm cool with the manager like the

Manager like because you've chopped it Up with the manager he's going to let Your fraudulent check go through so he Walks In the cops are in there they lock the Door he this told me later you know they Closed the door locked it the cops are In there they grab Him and uh they bring him downtown He didn't say anything he won't say Anything um that's not true by the way Um but he so here where he told me he Wouldn't say anything I told him I'm not Talking to you coppers oh he told yeah He told you but he actually did talk he Actually did talk to him so um he what He ends up doing what ends up happening Is we can't get in touch with him yeah So we're calling and calling and calling And then finally I decide you know what I'm not going to call his cell phone Anymore I'm going to Call the name of the person person he Was um the the synthetic identities Number right so I go and I call the Synthetic identities number I call and I Say somebody answers it and I go hey is So and so there and he said and it's a Gruff authoritarian voice you know it's This is Law enfor and he's and he's like No who's this he no he go no this is Officer so- and so who's this and I go I Was like uh this is Lee black I said he Said he how do you know so and so I was

Like oh no no click and I just hung up And I called for like a pay phone so I Turned around I said he got arrested and Then later on that night he showed up on The the county uh website you know the The arrest website showing he had been Arrested and uh the next day he calls me And he asked me to get him out of jail Like hey I I you got to go so I I have To give his brother-in-law money um you Know we get him out of jail he honestly Got out yeah he got out for like nothing And here's what I should have known he Was was cooperating his it went from Like $300,000 Bond down to like $10,000 So it's 1,000 bucks so right then I Didn't know it at the time but obviously That means we're going to let him out of Jail we're he's cooperating so they let Him out of jail I go and I get him a Lawyer a state this was state by the way It wasn't Federal so um I get him a Lawyer for like $115,000 I he come you know he comes of Course he tells me look they asked me a Bunch of questions I told him that you Know I That he you know he made up some story About there's he's working with another Guy but he doesn't know the guy's name He made up a name like a whole his this Whole kind of thing where he tells them About me but not me and he's like and Then you know the numbers none of the

Numbers LED anywhere so they all Le lead To cell phones that are only being used For those scams so it's a dead alley or Blind alley and uh I'm like okay okay And I mean I'm paying him like he's Coming in man I my truck's no good I Need another truck I buy him another Truck hey man my the Electric's going to Get turned off and I don't have oh I'm I Need $1,000 of course here's $1,000 I Don't know what I was I'm embarrassed You had to ask here's a th you know week Later you know he needs 2,000 for this a Th000 for this 2,000 for this he wants To start a tree trimming company he Needs to buy a tree trimmer how much are Those 5,000 of course that's 10 so I Give him another 25,000 starts like a Tree trimming business which he runs to This day Um what I don't know is that you know The whole time he's actually working With a a task force that's been put Together federal or this is State at This point it's a state task force uh Because there's multiple counties Involved at this point and it wasn't Hard for him to explain like this this Is this comes back to Reservoir Dogs I Got a much all he had to say to the Officers was listen you got to let me go I can't do any prison time I'm going to Tell you about a much much bigger scam And they go okay well how can you prove

That scam pull up Hillsboro County uh Hillsboro County's tax appraiser website Okay look up the name James red look all Of these were bu bought six months ago 6 Months later they're all in foreclosure Pull up Lee black all of these were Bought look 6 months later all of them Are foreclosure hey pull up James pull Up Brandon green pull up so all of these Are going in foreclose I it's it's so It's like you know that what I thought Was so cute not cute it was just stupid And so he very quickly they put together A task force he's working with them on The task Force And Um we're still buying houses flipping Houses doing everything because I'm I Believe him I believe he's not you know He's saying look if I have to go to jail For you know a year or so like you know And he's also paying you know he hasn't Paid them back yet but he but we're Saying he can pay them back like he's Like look if we get to the point you Know when we get to that point like We'll pay them back um but we haven't Paid him back yet because we have no way To show where that money came from we Can always go to like one of his Relatives and give give his dad 40 Grand Give his mom 20 grand you know that kind Of stuff and start putting money that

Way and all that money was taken out in Cash too so we could always show up with A chunk in cash Regardless you know it's still in the Process and I think it we're still in The process and it could be six months Or a year away because it's a slow thing I've already been through the process my First time when I got in trouble and it Was a year but from the time that I was Spoken to until I pled guil Y and was Sentenced so um I'm not concerned about It well that's happening we're still Flipping properties and one Day I have a buddy named Steve Sutton Remember the sheriff's deputy and keep In mind it's funny because like I've Done bad loans for police officers Sheriffs um lawyers doctors like you Know across everybody across these Aren't like all you know yeah Guys that you know these aren't all like You know construction workers or guys That work you know mechanics or Something these are like the legit these Are legitimate people that have credit Problems or whatever the case may be so One day I'm sitting at Work and And I'd been getting phone calls for the Prior week from people at title Companies saying hey Matt wanted to let You know we just had some subpoenas Served on several of your

Files and I'm concerned like that had me Concerned then a guy named Jeff Testerman starts making phone calls Jeff Testerman is a reporter for the St Petersburg times he's Calling people saying hey um I know Noticed that you sold a piece of Property to Lee black have you ever met Mr Black you see like and they're like Just hanging up on him or saying no I Don't know what you're talking about I'm Not sure what that guy's name was let me Call you back and I'm getting phone Calls from people so I know some some Things up with the newspaper now now I Know something's being looked at but Nobody's really talking I know that There are subpoenas being um being Served and I'm I'm nervous you know I'm I'm very concerned and then one day I'm In my office and the sheriff's deputy Walks in Steve Sutton in his uniform too Which everybody always stiffened you Know when he would walk in so he walks In I go Steve I said what's going on He's head and usually he's jolly and Laughs and stuff and he goes and he says Uh I got to talk to you outside I was like okay I walk outside what's up And he says uh I used to date this girl In the uh like the Tampa Police Department or something right I was like Okay he say she showed up at my house This morning at like 6 o'clock in the

Morning I went okay He said she said That she's been working on a task Force and he said Apparently one of your Buddies got arrested in Orlando uh They're investigating some other thing In clear waterer uh they're inv gating a Ton of properties here in in ebore Tampa Heights and I mean there's like a 100 Properties Involved and my name came up because You've sold some properties to me which I had and and he's like so she came to Me and said look your buddy Cox he said And the I go I was like okay he goes he Said well the task force is on you and She said to stop talking to you because They're going to come arrest you in a Couple days they just handed over the Task force findings to the to the FBI And the FBI is going to come arrest you In a couple days and she said not to Talk to you because and because you're You're going to Cooperate and because all white CER guys Cooperate so she thinks you're going to Cooperate and and not to talk to you Because she's afraid you're going to get Me hemmed up and she said just to walk Away and he was like so I thought you Should know and I was like okay and he Said uh what are you going to do I said Oh I'm you know I I'm well first he said What what should I do and I go tell them

Tell them that I arranged all the loans For you you came in you signed the Paperwork I filled out all the documents You signed the paperwork you you know I Arranged everything I'm like you're not A mortgage broker you don't know if this Is legit like you sign you have perfect Credit you signed the paperwork you Walked away with a check for 30,000 you Don't know Y and he was like because he Didn't because he had a job he was a Sheriff's deputy like I'm not a you know I went in I applied I applied for a loan At a bank they said we can buy you can Buy the house and we'll give you $30,000 So of course I'm going to do that you Know that's not going to happen but he Doesn't know he's and and I said just Tell him yeah tell him you'll cooperate Like Absolutely um he what are you going to Do I said me I said I'm I'm leaving bro I'm leaving I said I can't I can't stay Here I can't go to prison like I was Just sentenced I'm on federal probation Right now like the judge isn't going to Be cool with me getting popped again Like I mean he I can't do it can't do it I said I'm leaving can't go to prison I'm adorable bro like you know I can't I Saw Shaw Shank Redemption I know what's Gonna happen I can't too goodl looking Yeah I can't do that that's not gonna Happen like I I can't you know I can't

Not gonna defend myself against a guy Who's 6 foot three and tatted up no so And you know and I can't I'm not I'm no Benefit to a gang yeah like I'm not I'm A nonviolent you know soft white collar Criminal So I was just like uh I was like yeah I'm leaving bro I'm leaving so I Actually went home well actually I was Able to I started cutting checks to People right so I cut checks to uh Allison to Johnny to like everybody I Could think of here's 5,000 here's 7,000 Here's 8,000 here's six here's nine and Had them going into all these different Bank accounts pulling out cash but this Is like a Thursday at 4:00 so the next Day they show up with cash write some More checks they go again I get about 80 Grand in cash that's all I can get um I I I go home that night I start packing My bags and I was dating this this chick Named uh Rebecca Hal we've been dating About a month And she shows up at my house you know I Hadn't returned our phone calls all day And apparently we were supposed to go Out and I'd forgotten about it I had Bigger issues and so I'm packing a Couple of duffel bags and she walks in And she's like what's going on I'm like Um I'm leaving where you going I thought We were supposed to go out at such and Go do something tonight I'm like I'm

Leaving it's over and and she says what Happened I tell her what happened this Is what happened she's like oh my God Like she had no idea well she had no Idea about anything you were doing no I Barely knew her like I mean she's coming Over two three times a week for a month Like I've you know this isn't love this Isn't you know this is a booty call That's all it is like we're hanging out We're having sex and that's it I don't Even know you so She suddenly just begs to come with me You got to bring me with you you have to This you have to that I'm like what are You talking about like you you've got a You've got a son you have your mom lives Here you're and she's just in tears and Crying and she suddenly said this is What's so funny about is that she had Just moved From Vegas to to um St Petersburg to Work at the dog track to work for a Company that own the drg track right a Casino interest or yeah like a gambling Company and uh she said you don't even Know why I'm here I was like okay why Are you here she said I'm here because I Was working for a law firm that worked For the the um Casino company that I Work for she Said I got caught embezzling nothing it Was like 10 or $15,000 from my Boss cuz she had a gambling habit and

She said he didn't call the police Because we were sleeping together and he Was afraid his wife would find out she Said so instead he banished me here to St Pete my son just came to live with me He's been caught sneaking out uh because Her the father had raised him he'd only Been living with her since she got to Florida and she's like I was about I was Going to send him back he's failing School he's smoking pot he's been caught Sneaking out after curfew I'm like okay I I don't know any of this she's like he Was going back in December you well no He was going back after the school year Which would have been like May okay and I'm like so where before five minutes Earlier I thought she was this sweet Secretary sweet innocent Secretary and and she's like you know I've been married three times I a gamler I've play bankruptcy I'm sleeping with My old boss I got like you know she went From this you know thieving Adulteress you know and I thought these Are all really beneficial to my you know My future plans yeah you know and I Shouldn't have at that moment you know I Was so just flipped out and concerned And up and leaving your life and Everything you know Behind that's a that's terrifying and You know and and so now you're alone in

A strange place in a place first time You've done something like that like Leave to go on the road yes so I never Just up and moved and and keep in mind Now I can't call home I can't like I'm I'm leaving there there are things that I feel like get you caught and every you Know I've watched tons of these TV shows And you know there are certain things That get you caught you know one of them Is keeping in contact with anybody in Your old life so I'm thinking that's That's not going to happen like I'm not I'm not contacting anybody I'm leaving And that's it that didn't really happen I kept in touch I called my mom every Once a while but I was Like um okay that's cool did the Loneliness of that hit you early on or No like as you packing I never did Well you're leaving your life I mean There's a it feels like a fundamental Transition oh listen you think I mean Listen not just that like I'm leaving my My son I have a son and I'm you know I Was I was leaving everything I was just Terrified of going going to prison and You know I Mean I don't it was just it was just so Stupid it was just arrogance and you Know I should have stayed like I made Things so much worse but I I also Thought I'm

Smart I can I can figure this out like I Can change my identity blend in I'll be Fine aren't you already like people know What your face looks like they do they Do but I one of the first things I did Was I got plastic surgery what what kind Of plastic surgery I've got I've got a Nose job I got uh what they call a mini Face lift they go in through your back Of your ears and they suck out all the Fat in your neck does that change Appearance much uh a little bit um I got I was balding I got two hair transplants You know two hair graphs so the hair in My head this is my hair it's my hair but It's from back here so there's they cut It here I appreciate it um so they re Implanted it there uh you know got lipos Suction just some you know other stuff And you know got my teeth done that sort Of thing You know So you know and I that's was kind of Like my plan I'll go I'll take off I got 80 grand I'll steal some more money you Know but I I let her come with me and we Ran up all my credit cards over the next Few days packed up the car traded in my My Audi and got like an Audi I know was It like an A6 or like a four-o like the Big four-door whatever it was um got That and uh drove straight to Atlanta And Um so I I wrote a letter to my parents

Before I left just explaining this is What's happening I'm leaving I'm done I'm not going to Prison love you sorry sorry sorry sorry Sorry I know I'm a disappointment sorry Bam so I take off go to Atlanta when we went to Atlanta I Already had the name of a guy named Scott cugno that i' done a loan For so I I had his his you know his uh His Vital Information right like I have His name date of birth social security Number mother's made name and where he Was born one day we were having a Conversation and I just slowly pred all That out of him right like I already we' Done a loan for him so I already had his Name date of birth social security Number but I need to steal his identity I need to know where he was born and his Mother's made name so through the course Of a conversation I just Pride you know Hey you know cugno is that you know what Is that is that like Irish is it no it's Such and such what's your mom's name oh Such and such okay yeah you know we born Here you born in in wen't you from oh Man I was born here I was born in such Oh Hillboro County you know like I so It's no big deal we get to Atlanta I Make a fake for both of us but keep in Mind I don't I don't have like I don't Have a driver's license I I do but They're they're fake like I can't give

This to a to a cop can't give a driver's License that says David Freeman what's David's residence Florida or is this Georgia no this is Florida okay but it Was just a madeup name okay I'd gone to Like high school with a kid named David Freeman um so I I had an ID but I can't Give that to a cop like that's enough to Get like rent a place or do something Yeah so we go Go to Atlanta make an ID set it up make Some business cards set up a couple Websites set up some uh um get a a an HQ Which is that like a it's a company that Will you can do virtual you can rent Virtual you can rent offices and they'll Answer your phone for like hundred bucks A month and they'll afford them so seems Like you have a an office they'll they You know they give you a phone number That you call up and they say you know Hi United Southern Bank you know and They'll answer the phone and forward Messages so we get one of those make a Business card for uh for Becky she rents A house from a guy named um Michael Shanahan so we rent Michael shaneah Halen's house it's like $200,000 $200,000 house in Alfaretta And I then go to Alabama wait I then Order Scott cno's birth certificate Social security Card I think I registered a vote in his

Name and I think and we I made a lease Agreement in his Name and I think that's all I needed and Then I went to Alabama and got a Driver's license in his name so I went Into the DMV give them all these Documents and which are almost all of Them are real except for the lease M They said sit over there I sit over There I sit down boom 20 minutes later I Have a driver's license it's you know 20 Something dollar it was nothing so I get The driver's license now I'm driving This I'm still driving a car that an Audi that is in the name of Matt Cox so I park that I then Go get Social Security to issue me a Social security number in the name Scott Cugno and I then turn around and I go And I get a loan you put down 20 30% There's all these first-time or First-time buyers 30% Down rent get like a Honda or something So now we're living in a house we've got Some Furniture bedroom furniture and I Go downtown I pull the title to this guy Michael Shanahan's House and I go downtown and I satisfy The loan on his house so he had two Loans with Bank of America and so I I Make create two satisfaction of loans From Bank of America so Michael Shanahan Owns a house in the name Michael Shanahan he has one mortgage with Bank

Of America and a second one when you pay Your mortgage off the way public records Knows it's paid off is they mail public Records a satisfaction of mortgage it's A one-page document and it's notorized So got two of those I filled out two I I Created two of them I I just ordered you Know you can re do research so when I Went Downtown I Researched Bank of America satisfaction Of mortgages and you know thousands show Up so I just grab a couple of them now I Know what the basic template is they're All and they're all different by the way So it's you know it's not like you even Have to be that close but whatever I Mimicked some of them uh ordered I had a Notary stamp not hard to get you know You just you go in and you'll you go Into three Different um you know uh Office Depots And you say hey I need a notary stamp And you give them the information and You come back four day or whatever a Week later and they give it to you so I've got these notary stamps so I Notarize the satisfactions I go downtown I file them Boom the mortgages are gone On keep in mind Bank of America he's Still paying the mortgages they don't Know that they've been satisfied in Public records they're not notified so Those are gone but it takes about a

Month or two for it to show up Atlanta Was that far behind I think it was Fulton County they were just way behind So we just kind of have to dick around For a while right so we're going on Little vacations we're going to New Orleans we're going to different Places um as Scott cugno driving a car Of Scott cugno we open up sever bank Accounts we have multiple bank accounts And then um we end up going to Vegas and We don't get we do go to Vegas but what Happened was we're driving around and I Remember thinking telling her I was like You know this is a problem like we have To get real IDs real driver's licenses I Mean this is real but this is a real Person too and he may stumble across it And and so what I did was I I started Running ads in um Magazines saying um home Lo available Good credit bad credit no problem call Now government loans you know government You know VA FHA F you know whatever call This number so people start Calling and I'm getting their Information one of the guys I got was uh Michael eert yeah I remember Michael Eert poor Michael Eer um I actually actually legally Changed his name to Michael Johnson at One point but at this point it was just Michael eard so I don't I wanted to see You know I'm bored I want to see what

The process is how much does it cost can Is this possible let me see if I can Change this guy's name it was it was 1500 bucks I changed it without him ever Showing up anywhere so you can f I have A driver's license in his name right I Am him so he did show up he showed up at The lawyer's office he so you know right So I'm so I do that I'm living in the House um and we were driving along one Day and I'm saying we got to get real Like these people that are calling like That one guy I I get his information but During the course of taking the Application and I'm asking like these These government survey questions at the Very end there like 20 questions and I'm Rambling them off and at some point he Was like he said he he volunteered like I didn't used I never even asked anybody About criminal history and he just he Ended up saying something well I do have A felony does that matter I mean he's Like he Ian it was a DUI I've had a Couple DUIs but I got my life Li back And that was part of the reason he had Bad credit and it was like okay uh no no It doesn't matter don't worry I'm Thinking you're not getting alone so This is I'm just taking your I'm just Stealing from you stealing your Information so I get all this Information I'm gathering it and so one Of the things I said to Becky while we

Are sitting at this stoplight is I'm Like we got to get real people's real Information and I said like for instance I said what if I steal somebody's Identity I get a driver's license in his Name four states from where he lives and He gets a DUI I could get pulled over Two years later and get arrested for a DUI that he got in Florida and she's Like well what do you what do you what Are you thinking are you thinking like Like criminals or are you thinking like Like prisoners like mental patients like And I went I mean I don't and I looked Over and there was a homeless guy Holding a sign and I went like that guy And for she goes she's the hobo like I Don't know who calls them hobos and She's like the hobo I said yes that guy I said hold on pulled over to a Subway Got out she went inside to get Subway I Walk across the street pulled out like 20 bucks and I said hey bro can I ask You some quick questions real quick he's Like uh yeah what's up and I go here's 20 bucks I said listen um I said when Was the last time you were gainfully Employed he's like ah what 10 years like Go okay uh do you do you have a criminal Record he's like I've been arrested and Misdemeanor like you know vagrancy he Named off some things you know drunk in Public whatever and I was like are you On probation he goes I can't we can't

Can't I can't do probation they don't Give us probation they keep us for 90 Days they release us like they the judge Knows I can't do I'm not going to show Up for a probation I'm like okay uh do You have a driver's license he's like Maybe I don't think so I think it's just Like was it you get DUI he's like no I Think it's just expired did you have a Driver's license with you he's like no I Got nothing I'm like okay well you know He told me he lived in like a tent in The the woods mhm And and so I gave him like another 20 Bucks asked him a few more questions and Uh and then oh and and I remember in the Middle of it he said he goes you taking A survey or something and I went I Remember thinking I go nothing I I go I I kind of chuckle I go you get a lot of Surveyors out here like that he goes Yeah sometimes and I was like really he Goes yeah he said like the um uh he said People from like you know halfway houses And uh what do you say uh um social Workers and stuff they'll come out and They'll you know they'll pass out stuff And they'll ask us questions and stuff I'm like oh okay and I was like I Thought that's good to know so I go back I get grab Becky and she's like oh she Like did you give him money I said give Him like 40 or 60 bucks or something Forget what and she was like that's what

A waste of money that was good that was Money well spent I said that guy's Perfect I said that guy is he's got got Everything he has no way to be contacted He has no documentation on him I said He's he's not going to drive a car he's Not going to get a DUI he has an expired License I just have to get his license Reinstated and I can be him so I went Home I typed up a what I called a Federal statistical survey form and I Made a little thing I mean I went online I you know I'm always filling out Federal documents as a mortgage broker So it looked identical I mean I had like This little like the the recycle symbol And it was like you know Federal Form 17017 you know um and so I print out These forms I get a go buy a clip board I make a little Salvation Army ID I pin It on me and I go out and I start um Doing a surveys I start surveying Homeless homeless people don't judge me Bro I was in a bad spot I was in a bad Spot I see the Judgment I see the Judgment let's M let's maintain civility Here like stay neutral stay neutral so These homeless guys I mean they have uh They have a Social Security number they Have a a birth certificate I guess I Mean they're a real person right they're Real person they're just not using their Real person yeah they're not actively Engaging with the the economic system

The financial systems they're not They're not employed they don't have Housing all that yeah they they don't File taxes they don't so I one of the Questions I even asked the guy at one of The last questions I said do you believe That you will be gainfully employed Within the next two years mhm every one Of them said no no no so you know was Like okay they're not even they're not Even trying and they all had alcohol Problems or honestly the few of them I Talked to like was pretty clear I mean It takes literally five minutes less Than five minutes to fill out the form And I filled it out Forum of course um But even filling it out and that brief Just asking questions back and forth Half of them you could tell you've got Some mental illness like something's not Right right with you like these aren't Guys that are going to go out and get Are going to get jobs they're not Cleaning up so they were perfect for my Purposes as horrible as I know that Sounds so you feel bad about this little Small tangent no do I feel bad about it The homeless people in society are Really it's a difficult life like Dealing with mental illness dealing with Drug addiction all that kind of stuff I Mean listen being in prison and then the Kind the people that are in prison that You know are are going to be homeless or

Have been homeless or the mental illness That I've dealt with in halfway houses And even doing this I don't know what You do with these people I don't even Know that you house them you can't Necessarily even house them together you Know they they cause such problems like I don't know what the solution is other Than just kind of keeping them fed maybe And keep them away from normal people You know so they don't call caus crime Or whatever I don't know about housing Them in one area that seems like a Mistake like there is absolutely no good Solution to that problem none because It's not like hey if if we gave you a House and we gave you job training and We gave you this okay you might get 5% Yeah 10 but most of them are on the Street because they've just messed up Over and over and over again and they Just kind of gave up but you know I Guess we still have to remember that They're human beings and we mentioned Off Mike uh soft white underbelly and he Highlights the humanity of people who've Had a real difficult life he does it Well he's Mark Lea is amazing he's Amazing and one of the things he had Said was like these are he was like These are real people and he's like Their stories he's like they have Stories and they need you know but if You also talk to Mark he'll tell you you

Can't just you can't give him money you Can't like you can't like he's tried Over every time he's reached out and Tried to help these guys put them in Apartments fed them got them back on Their feet within 6 months they're back On they're back on the street I mean Just it just happens over and over and Over again I mean I think the amount of Money that would have to be dumped into Correcting that Problem I don't know I mean you can say Well yeah but just you know you should Do it because it's the right thing to do I don't know who's paying for it it's Complicated but for your purpose they They have a Social Security number they Got 20 bucks they seem very happy there You are with a clipboard taking a survey Right took a Survey uh went home ordered their and They you know of course they give me Everything name date of birth social Security number um mother's made name Where they were born have they ever been In the armed services have they ever had A passport issued what states have they Had identification and have they ever Been arrested they ever been on Probation have they ever claimed Social Security disability SII I mean every I I Had like 17 questions and it absolutely Answered everything what high school did You go to cuz high school transcripts

Are great for documentation a lot of Times they'll ask you for high school You know can you get us a copy of your High school transcripts like that's a Good know and I'm a big believer in Overkill so I mean I ordered a ton of Stuff if I Needed three things to get a driver's License in your name right you know I'd Come in with like six cuz what you do is You get in front of the the the guy at The DMV and you kind of fumble through Like uh I got this uh what else do you Need uh you know I know exactly what you Need but you know they'll be like oh was That High School transfer yeah I'll take That and uh what oh voter's registration Card give me that yeah that's you're Perfect you're good sit down right over There that's it you who is by the way Lurking in the shadows trying to catch You you've mentioned FBI Secret Service You you mentioned uh I think I've heard You mentioned US Marshals which is Interesting cops General the police CIA I guess CIA is international only FBI is Internal yes okay well so who is when You're doing This who are you afraid of so by the Time I've gotten to Atlanta within four Or five days the FBI raided my office I Guess I kind of missed that back in Florida back in Florida when I left and Drove to Atlanta and left remember this

FBI was going to show up a few days Later they were going to arrest me and They did they did they showed up like I Left on a Sunday night or something Because for some reason my stupid Thought I thought well they won't arrest Me on the weekend like they don't work On the weekends um so they came on like A whatever it was like a Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday like within a few Days they come in the office they rate It they're looking for me but I'm gone Nobody knows where I am and uh so now I'm I'm surveying the homeless guys and I turn around and I'm ordering their Documents and as their documents are Showing Up you know I'm I'm going to different States and getting IDs So I'm going to Florida so over over the Course of this whole thing I've had 27 Driers licenses in like seven different States I've had two dozen passports Because if you're going to get the Driver's license in the guy's name you Might as well get or an ID even you Might as well get a passport because a Passport is not difficult to get they Don't fingerprint you you know all they Look all they're doing is saying this is Your ID and where you're born here and Then they run a check and if it comes Back or it doesn't and back then you Could do it expedited and I'd have it in

Like two weeks like now it takes like 90 Days or 60 to 90 days to get one but and If you have multiple ideas for a single Identity that's more proof like right so Wait what number did you say how many How many IDs how many identities so I Had well I've had over 50 identities but I've had 27 driver's licenses issued from State DMVs Department of Motor Vehicles so Like legit legitimately I walked into The DMV said hi my name is Michael eert And I just moved here about three weeks Ago four weeks ago here's my lease and Here I I I lost my I lost my driver's License bro like I don't know what I did With it I don't know I don't know what Happened I I don't know and they're like It's all right uh what do you have do You have I need a proof of residency Well I have my lease oh okay um I need a A a primary uh okay here's my birth Certificate okay and I need a a Secondary here's my social security card But I also registered you know I I Registered to vote my girlfriend made me Vote immediately and she said I would Need oh yeah it's perfect you're you're Good I don't even need that okay great Stand over there pay that person they Call your number 275 you know 45 minutes Later you go you pay your 25 bucks you Stand in front of the the screen they Take a picture you got a driver's

License you walk out it's still warm It's beautiful it smells like pop Plastic it's amazing and so I I I'm Opening up Different uh different bank accounts in These guys Names and just what you yeah sorry what Are you mostly doing with the identities You opening up different bank accounts You doing a credit uh starting to Establish credit or no some of them like I might order um I might Order uh secured credit cards so I can't Get credit you know I'm building their Credit like it's not helping me in any Way I'm just sending out $500 to get a a Capital One card or a American I'm sorry A Bank of America secured credit card Whatever so I'm building their credits But not all of them only a few because I'm collect although I'm collecting Them I'm also going to be moving soon I'm only here to get a few hundred, and Move I need some kind of a base so I Don't want to start getting credit cards And building up a a history in Atlanta In anybody's name but I am getting Drivers like licenses in other states so I've been like North Carolina South Carolina what's the primary method of Income here when you move to a place South Carolina how do you make 100,000 At this at this time oh well I'm right Now I'm living in this guy's house and I

Satisfied his loans the house is worth 200,000 got it so what happens is one Day we go and we check public records Remember I told you it takes months for It to show up and it shows up M he's got No mortgages on the house so now I'm I Turn around and I make a fake ID in the Name Michael Shanahan M and I'm living in his house but I have No credit right there's no credit so I've got a the the ID I I've got a a Social security number and I order some Secure credit cards in his name so if You pull that credit profile it does it Shows up saying he's got some credit Cards but it's they've only they're only A month or two old so I can't go to like Bank of America I mean I could But I needed to get the money as quick As possible like I I want to get out of Atlanta so and at this point by the way There's multiple articles showing up in Tampa so the St Petersburg times is is Writing multiple articles about me with Your face with my picture yeah but it's Honestly it's it's pre I me not pre- Internet but it's it's post internet but It's it's in its infancy like no Nobody's it's not huge and and honestly It's a it's a it's a it's a local Newspaper in Tampa it's not that big of A deal like I'm not concerned about that So much at this point what I'm concerned About is getting a chunk of money and

Just moving on and kind of Reestablishing ourselves in a better way Where we're not living in a in a Building that we're going to be Committing fraud in with our house so But I'm living in this place I make a Fake ID in the name Michael Shanahan and I call up three secured or sorry three Hard money lenders a hard money lender Is a guy that lends his own money or Other investors money on property kind Of like a bank but he's lending his own Money so he doesn't have to really meet The banking Requirements and he can charge a much Higher interest rate these guys are Charging 12 133% interest uh simple Interest and they're only lending you a A much lower percentage of the value of Your home so they're not lending you 90% Of the value they're lending you 65 % 60% so I call three of these guys they All come out to the house at different Times and each one of them says I'll Lend you 100,000 or it's like 150,000 150 like they all lend roughly 150,000 so we schedule three separate Closings none of them know about the Other person so what I do is I Close I Clos One loan on let's say Monday and then one on Tuesday and then One on whatever Wednesday or Thursday or Or they may have all been the same day To be honest but I don't remember the

Point is I go to three separate title Companies or uh real estate attorneys And we close and I get checks for you Know after costs and everything the Total ends up being roughly 400,000 so I've got 400,000 Becky and I Run another scam in in Tallahassee Florida and we get like 50 Grand and Plus we the 80 the 80s dwindled down to Close to nothing we we had gone on Several vacations we went to like Bermuda and I think we went to Jamaica We actually stayed at the Ritz in uh in Jamaica so it was very nice you and Becky so Becky turned out to be pretty Good in terms of scams on the road no She was useless she was she was she was Horrible and she just spent money all The time and by the what I realized too Very quickly is she's Bipolar so she's bipolar and She's absolutely you know insane she Smokes pot all the time um did that Matter for you personally or did it Actually affect the uh how good you were Able to do the these particular scams it Was that she was the type of person that Would start an argument at 1:00 in the Morning yeah and scream at the top of Her lungs and get the cops Called okay so I can't have the police Called I can't get taken downtown and Fingerprinted I can't have the police Showing up I don't know who's really

Who's looking we haven't had plastic Surgery at this point we're still Pulling money together So oh Becky yeah Becky's a problem And at some point I actually we send her To a like a psychiatrist and they they Give her um they put her on Zoloft she takes it for like a month or Two and then she stops taking it she's She she thought she was all better mhm Like you're not all better so can you Give me a timeline here how long are you Able to be on the road here successfully Three years three years this is me this Is the first few months three years well So three Years what happens is we I we get that Little chunk of money we put it Deposited into these bank accounts and We start pulling out cash M um and which works out fine because we Got a bunch of accounts and we're Pulling out little 7,000 5,000 8,000 and you know I would Cash checks against her Accounts and they would call her to Verify uh there's someone here trying to Cash a check for $99,000 you know can You verify the pay and they go oh yeah That's Scott cugno oh okay thank you and They cash the check you know these are New accounts so it looks odd but you Know we're always I opened the Account so what what ends up happening

Is Um we're cashing them and I remember Getting really frustrated because it Just taking forever and I gone into a Bank one Time and you know they have Banks where That they they Cash they actually cash like large Checks like if you go into Bank of America and you try and cash a check for $155,000 or 25,000 they probably won't Do it they'll tell you we don't have That much cash on hand we don't this we Don't that they have certain banks that Do that so they told me where one of Those was I went there I had a check for Like 29,000 that had been cut on a closing For Michael Shanahan remember I Refinanced Michael Shanahan's I've got a Check for 29,000 that was issued to Scott Cugno so I'm sitting in the bank I go in There I say I need to cash this and she Says um you're going to have to talk to The manager I go okay she says go sit Down no over there I go sit down in the Little glass cubicle he comes over and He says uh I see you're trying to cash This check and I was like right he goes Why don't you just deposit in your own Bank and I went my bank account my bank Is a credit union or something and it's In like Florida like they'll hold this

Thing for like two weeks like I need the Money now I have people I need to pay He's like well um I'm not sure and I was Like well it's fine it's a it's a Cashier check like it's good and he goes No it's it's good it's good I you have The money and he's like yeah we have the Money he said it's just odd um hold on He goes back in the back and he comes Back and he says um where'd you get the Check cashier check I said it was a Cashier check it was drawn off of a Closing for um somebody's property that I I we doing the company I work for We're putting on an addition On okay that makes sense comes back why Do you need cash I was like I I'm Cashing guys checks that work for the Company like there's a lot of these guys That are like Mexican guys they give Them a check they go to a check cashing Company or they get charged 5 10% so I Cash them I'm like I don't under like What the check's good right like my and He's like yeah we're just trying to Verify some stuff any he went Um yeah hold on he leaves again and I Remember my cell phone rang and I pick Up the phone it's Becky what are you Doing what's taking so long I go ah the Guy's being a jerk you don't want to Give me the money well she's like oh my God get out of the bank get out of the Bank and I I can't get out of the bank

The guy's got my ID he's got my credit Card my ID and the check for 29,000 like He's to call the police if I just jump Up and run M and I go don't don't call Me again I I'll let you know it'll be Fine hang out the Phone she calls back same conversation I'm I'm bouncing on the walls I'm like I'm going crazy it'll be fine hang out The phone he comes back out and he goes Uh he said um I said hey I said what's What's taking so long and he goes um We're trying to get in touch with uh With Michael Shanahan to verify the Check that that's not good for me like I'm thinking Right right okay okay and he walks away The phone rings Becky what's what's Going on I go he's they're trying to get A hold of Michael Shany oh my God oh my God and I'm like oh my God and I Remember thinking I should I shouldn't Left her the keys there's a good chance I run out of this place and she does She's not there but by the way when You're sitting there you're who Scott You're Scott I'm Scott cugno and then Calling Michael Shanahan right they're Saying they're trying to get in touch With Michael Shanahan So then the phone rings my cell Rings Again I look and it's not Becky's yeah Not Becky so I pick up the phone I go Hello and she says hi this is Kim is it

From Sun Trust Bank is this Michael Shanahan so I'm like yes it is Michael Shanahan and she says there's a guy here He's trying to cash a check it's very Large could you verify the pay and I go Sure it's Scott cugno he's trying I said I believe the amount is $29,000 and she Goes that's right thank you very much I Appreciate appreciate it I said okay I Said hey by the way how'd you get my Number this is my cell number and she's Like oh I'm sorry we called the title Company and the title company gave us Your phone number well I closed those Loans that's my sale that's why if they Looked in any other way I would have They could have gotten in touch with a Real Michael shanning in so I was like Oh okay hang up the phone you're sitting You answered the phone from the bank While sitting in the bank as as SC as Scott as Scott pretending to be my so I Right so I just verified the check Myself as Matthew pretending to be Scott Is pretending to be Michael right yeah So I wait there terrified still they Come out about two minutes later the Manager comes out plus a woman I'm Assuming maybe it was Kim she never said Anything and she walks out and she says And and he counts out the money twice 29,000 29,000 and I st stand up and I I Mean just like I'm like shoving the Money in my pockets like I'm trying to

Get out of there so quick I'm like hey I'm like okay cool um like I'm thinking This whole thing is is you know feels Bad and I'm getting up and I'm so I'm I'm starting to walk out of the bank And he Goes he said um excuse me Mr cugno and I Said yes sir I turn around and he goes I'd like you know like you to know that I feel very apprehensive about this Transaction and I go really what is it Exactly he goes I I can't put my finger On it and I go it'll come to you and I Turn around I just bolt right out of There and so keep in mind a week or so Later the Secret Service shows uph did You cash a check for $29,000 So um what's so funny he like that was One of the last checks we cashed so we Ended up with like 400,000 was there a Connection between the Secret Service And this guy no apprehension so the FBI Is looking for me kind of in in Tampa Yeah and they've put out a a fugitive Warrant for me which is how the US Marshals got involved so US Marshals Track down fugitives Yes Federal Fugitives they track Down but everybody's after you you're on Every list right I'm on the FBI's list At that point the Secret Service got Involved once I leave Atlanta so when Becky and I pack up our bags and we

Leave Atlanta the Secret Service got involved Because of identity theft Um you know banking identity that that The Secret Service doesn't just do Counterfeiting and protect the president They also protect the financial Infrastructure of the United States and They especially have jurisdiction when Identity theft is involved so identity Theft plus bank fraud they're that's When they they move yeah that's it That's their their um their territory so Marshals are just fugitives US Marshall Is just fugitives they don't do any Inves they're all kind of work okay but They're all kind of working together Yeah yeah the the you know like the US Marshals are like let's say an arm of All of the various law enforcement Agencies federal agencies not the states The states have their own fugitive task Forces or fugitive so when you leave Atlanta basically everybody's after you Everybody's after me did you know this At that time or did you sense it no I Mean now you know we every day you're Looking up you're looking your name up Every day like I'm not cuz I'm just Trying to get a bunch of money and and Just blend in right things were not as Interconnected at that time as they are Now yeah but they're starting to get Interconnected but of course I have no

Idea how much I I barely go on the Internet for anything you know dating That's the only thing the internet you Know I'd never been on Facebook at this Point now Facebook isn't even even out Yet this is 2006 still were you trying to stay low Yeah I I am I'm not a flashy person like I'm not driving you know like I didn't Go out and buy a a a red Lamborghini you Know I'm driving I'm driving $40 $50,000 Cars you know I've had some sports cars 7080 you know maybe that's a $150,000 Sports car now but it's still not flashy It's not like it's bright red or yellow I these are it's always something you Know nondescript and I'm living in areas That these cars are everywhere you know I go to na so I end up going to Charlotte North Carolina we rent an apartment we decided To run a scam uh In in um South Carolina so I go to Columbia South Carolina and in between This period of time we go to Las Vegas and I when we go to Lo we go to Las Vegas to Drop off a bunch of money to uh Becky's uh son's father who's taking Care of her son we drop off some money There we go and we start and and while We're there it's like hey there's Homeless people here so We you know usually I don't feel bad

Telling these stories you make me feel Bad I'm sorry I'm sorry my judgment is Showing no uh but you have to be Collecting identities I guess to be Constantly creating new Identities so I I got my survey forms so I go and you know we're we we go out and We're taking I'm taking service and I End up going up to this guy who's like Two or three guys that are standing on Like a bench or sitting on next to a Bench or something and I see them and I Walk up and the guy one guy gets up and He comes over he's like hey what what do You need and I went um I'm taking a Surveys for the Salvation Army to Determine where we place our next Homeless facility and the guy goes oh I'm not interested they always said that I say it pays 20 bucks cash right now It'll take you five minutes and they're Like what you $20 cash right now I like Yeah show them the cash they go okay Yeah yeah what do you need name date of Birth social security number so when I Get to um criminal record the guy he Says criminal he's like yeah I've been Arrested he I've been arrested like Three four times for pro he said for a Prostitution he said um but they're like Misdemeanor and I went okay Um and it was like okay well Prostitution I to me women get charged With prostitution you know men get pro

Charged with solicitation I went Prostitution and he goes and he went he Said yeah yeah he said I offered to blow An undercover cop for 20 bucks he said That's what I thought you were coming up Here And I was like and I was like no no bro I said uh okay and he's like yeah he Said uh you know he goes he goes I mean He said I mean a girl's got to do what a Girls got to do you know and he made Some comment or something I was like Okay so I jot down the rest of it we're Good I give him 20 bucks I get my car I Leave uh we get back To North Carolina I order all of his Documents his name was Gary Sullivan I then go to South Carolina when I go to South Carolina I get a real estate agent we Drive around for a day we look at like Five or six houses I Put five Contra five Owner owner financing contracts on five Different houses so I get him he writes Up five contracts all of them I'm I'm Asking for owner financing I'll put down 10% I want owner financing two of them End up coming back and saying yes we'll Do It I have two closings one of them's a House that's worth like 225,000 I put Down 25 Grand another one's uh 110,000 I Put down 11,000 so I buy these two

Houses I then satisfy the loans to on Both the Houses everything seems like it's going Okay although Becky's a a lunatic at This point she's she's had so many she She won't take her medication she's had So many outbursts uh that And and we've had by this time we've had Plastic surgery like she's gotten Plastic surgery she's gotten a boob job She's gotten lipos suction I mean all Kinds of stuff so look way Different like appearance changes or Thinner better looking you know just Tightened everything up I guess you know She was in her she'd had a she'd had a Kid and she was 3 33 34 I don't know how She was 20 32 33 I don't roughly my age So yeah I thought she looked you know She lost like 15 lbs like she was not Because of the surgery but just in General we're not we're just working out We're going mountain climbing we're you Know riding bikes we're doing you know There's Fraud's not a full-time job so You know we have plenty of time so we're We're goofing off And uh but she's also a lunatic you know She's getting the cops called she's able To go out and she's able to stay stoned 24 hours a day she's she's going out With friends drinking I never leave the House you know uh even to this day I Really barely ever leave the house I'm

I'm very much a homebody kind of person So like the the idea that I'm able to Make my living doing YouTube and I never Have to leave my house M I love that I Don't ever go anywhere except for the Gym and back home that's it so what Happens is uh I I've actually moved her Out of the my apartment like I had an Apartment downtown 30 storying building Actually move her into another apartment She's that much of a lunatic we can't Even be in the same place multiple times I've tried to leave her she's called me Up and begged me to come back it's Horrible so I end up buying a couple Houses in in Columbia South Carolina I satisfy the loans on the Houses I've got an ID not a driver's License but an ID in the name of Gary Lee Sullivan and I refinanced I refinanced Those houses cuz keep in mind they were Owner finan in but they also had Mortgages so there's something called a Wraparound mortgage so these guys did Wraparound mortgages so let's say you Buy a house for $2 200 $250,000 and the bank lends you $200,000 MH and then you owner finance the house To me so we do a I give you 50 Grand Down but I'm not I'm not able to get a Loan from the bank to pay off your Mortgage so what we do is you do a Wraparound mortgage so I'll pay you your

Mortgage and you pay the bank so there Is a second mortgage on the property but It's called a wrap it it's WRA it's Wrapped around your first that's legal MH yeah so I wouldn't lie to you so it's So there's these have wraparound Mortgages so you're always selling I and You're good at it so I go I satisfy yeah The loans the owner finance loans the Wraparound mortgages and I I satisfy the Loans there the original loans that These people took out on their own Mortgages MH one of them by the way I Sat you know you have to sign as the President of the bank right yeah so I Sign it as SE Montgomery Burns which is The Aging tycoon in the the the guy that Owns the power plant in The Simpsons TV Show yeah so I signed that and I Notorized it which I thought was cute I Actually wanted to sign all of them Cartoon characters and Becky was Screaming her head off and wouldn't let Me do it right like I wanted to do all The Simpsons right but she wouldn't let Me do it she's screaming and hollering So I ended up you know see nobody knows Who C monmy Burns is so I sign it Notarize it all of those are satisfied I Then go to the multiple Bank Banks and I Refinance start refinancing all these uh These properties multiple times so I'm Applying for these loans and I'm getting The loans and I'm closing so I've got

Like five or six loans on this one house The house is like 225,000 I think it was like 230 whatever I I I Get I borrow like four or five loans on That house so I borrow like $190,000 like five times so I've got Like $800,000 and then I borrow another Three or 400,000 on the other house the One the smaller one right so it ends up Being like $1.3 million it's actually Like 1.5 million it was more but what Happened with that was so keep in mind I You can only open up so many bank Accounts in your name you can go to Bank Of America they'll open one then you go To Sun Trust they'll open one they're Gonna they might even ask you did You did you open another bank account Today because every time you do it There's an inquiry into something called Check Systems um or acue check and so then They go so then by the time you go to The Third Bank they'll say listen Something's not right you've got Multiple inquiries you know if you go to Whatever mertile Bank there might be They might go okay we're going to open One they're going to need an explanation But you're not you're not opening more Than three M by the third one they're be Like absolutely not something's wrong so You know I've got multiple identities But I can only open up so so many banks

The other problem is that these these Checks they'll only give you so much Money on a refi usually after $100,000 They only want to let you walk away with Let's say $100,000 so one of the things I did was I would I would typically record Another Mortgage and have them pay that mortgage Off so I had to open I Opened a corporation to do that so I Could then turn around and go open Corporate bank accounts cuz now it's not Going off my information it's going off The corporation so I can open up Multiple corporate bank accounts well These corporations are fake or real no No I went to a real corporate bank Attorney corporate attorney and had him Open them I gave him whatever gave him Like $1,500 $2,000 and he opened up a Corporation for me Gary Sullivan yeah And I then turned around and I went and Opened up multiple bank accounts in that In those that corporation's name how how Are you keeping track of all this cuz This is I don't so I I your head or do You have good organiz no I have every Single identity has its own file with With um you know plastic inlays sleeves For their passports it's nice and Organized yeah it's super organized you Open this I'm Gary now right that's Exactly what it is like you kind of go Over boom boom boom boom you sit in your

Car for a minute you put it down you Walk in MH well what happens is it went Up to like 1.5 million and I'm pulling Money out of the bank and then one day I Got a phone call on Gary Sullivan's cell Phone the guy it's a it's a lawyer they Call up he says hey I'm lawyer with Washington Mutual we have an Issue I said what's that he says we got A phone call from the title company one Of the title companies that I was Attempting to refinance a one of the Pieces of property with noticed that I They had been sent they' been sent a Document that showed that I had Purchased the property and I said I Purchased it cash and I the docu that I Purchased at Cash And they got that and there was actually A mortgage on the property and so Somehow or another they they connected It and they called Washington Mutual and They said look there's an issue there's A fraud we have a fraudulent document Here and he was like he said so we went And we looked and it turns out that we Pulled public records and that there is A mortgage in front of us several Mortgages in front of us so there's like Three or four mortgages in front of me Washington Mutual you owe us and it Wasn't that much it was like 100 it was Like like 100 Grand right like 95 or 100

And I said uh okay and he said so There's an issue here you've got a few Mortgages in front of us and we're Supposed to be a first mortgage and We're not supposed to be two mortgages Behind or three and I was like okay Sounds like a sounds like an error not a Big deal um have you contacted law Enforcement he said no I haven't I was Hoping we could rectify this some other Way I said you know what I think we can I'm going to have my lawyer call you Back I'm going to go to his place right Now give me about two hours no problem I Immediately run jump in my car head Towards South Carolina call my corporate Lawyer tell him look I need to talk to You here's what's going on I explain it To him he doesn't really understand he Says um this sounds pretty complicated I Have a my bit my wall partner is a Criminal defense attorney I'm going to Have I'm going to I set up a meeting Right now with all of us okay I get There 45 minutes and later I walk in the Door I sit down he says what happened I Said they said you know Gary this is This is doesn't sound right what's what What happened I said okay so listen Bought this House I bought it cash I then refinanced It I didn't buy it cash but I tell them I bought it cash I refinanced it like Four or five times within a day or two

Of each other and they were like how is That even possible I was like well I Went to different title companies and I Explain how I do it I I said Washington Mutual just found out that they're in Like second position or third Position and or or I said but they're Probably they may be in fourth position You know they mail these things in so You never know and he was like oh my God He's like that's uh what do you want to Do I said I want you to contact them and Agree for them to not contact the Authorities provided we pay them I pay Them off he do you have the money I said I do have the money I can go get the Money right now he calls the lawyer they This is back when faxes right so they Fax some documents back and forth they Make they do a couple emails back and Forth and uh they have a conversation I Remember the lawyer started arguing Because he wanted to charge me um like Yield spread and fees and stuff and I Was like I was like what are you talking About like I'll pay it like so it ends Up being a little over 100,000 and I'm Like that's it so he's like okay and so He says okay um that sounds good and so He said okay all you have to do is go Get the check And he said bring it to a Washington Mutual Branch tell them to call I said I'm not going in a Washington Mutual

Branch bro I'll bring you the check so He calls him back he's not doing that And he's not okay I'm not I'll bring it Here you guys take care he said no Problem okay hang up the phone and he Turns to me he says okay well we have a Problem he said we still have the Problem of these other Mortgages and I went right and he said Um and he goes okay well I said they Don't know anything he said I know but Gary he said what if they find out I Said they find out that they're like in Second and third and fourth place he's Like right I said I I leave town and he Went they so they both laugh they Gary You can't just leave Town they they have they have a copy of Your driver's license they have your Social security number they have your Birth certificate I said they'll find You it's the FBI and I go you're Assuming I'm Gary Sullivan wow you tell Them and they listen they looked at me And they Went and I I remember he said he goes We'll uh we'll cross that bridge when we Get to it I said right my immediate Problem is getting rid of these people And he goes right right so oh I go get The check bring it back give it to them Never called the FBI I can't believe you Got away with the with the Washington Mutual oh bro this is I mean these are

All really close calls it seems like you No this is the close call I have two More close calls that my hands sweat Thinking about It I walk in I walk into wacovia I just Opened this account two months ago so It's a new account so whenever I would Go in there I'd say hey I need a $7,000 $6,000 anything over $3,000 they had to Call to get permission right like author Uh authorization so she's like okay I Got to go call I said no problem so the The girl walks in the back I'm sitting There waiting all of a Sudden a massive person reaches over my Hand and grabs my wrist and somebody Grabs it from the other one and they Pull my hands behind my back these are Two of possibly the largest Law Enforcement Officers I've ever seen in My entire life and they're Massive and they they handcuff me and They say you're um uh Mr Sullivan you're Being detained we're taking you into Custody and you know putting you uh Where holding you until a detective gets Here who are these guys is this US Marshals or is this cops or what these Are sheriff's deputies sh sheriff's Deputies and as they walk me in right as They walk me in the back they're calling Me Mr Sullivan right they sit me down And by now I'm you know the Secret Service are

Looking for me they're they're calling Me uh well they were calling us John and Jane Doe but now they figured out who we Were and so now I'm on the secret Services Most Wanted L I'm not like Number one at that right like I probably Was but I I we just found out I was on Like on that list so it it's it's Getting bad so they sit me down and I'm Waiting and I remember thinking that the FBI was coming you know I don't really Know at that point I couldn't tell you The difference between everybody and Then five minutes go by and you know I'm Sitting there going what is going on do You guys have any idea what's going They're like we don't know we're just Grunts we just do what we're told so Suddenly this guy walks in he's probably In his early 30s maybe he walks in gray Suit I think he looks like he's FBI he Says hey I'm a detective with the uh I Want to say Richland County you know Whatever sheriff department or police Department whatever and I was like oh Okay and he says yeah listen we've got An issue wacovia wacovia wants this they Want us to arrest you he said that they They're saying that you've got three Mortgages on on your house and I go is That Illegal and he looked at me and he went You know to be honest I don't know yeah I I and I distinctly remember thinking

I'm walking out of here all I have to do Is convince this guy I haven't done Anything wrong he's already said he Doesn't know so he gets on the phone With the head of wacovia fraud Department and he's tell saying this guy Is running what's called a shotgunning Scam which is absolutely right and so What what is the shotgun it's where You're you you close on so many loans Simultaneously they can't catch it Anyway they they start going back and Forth and he's on the phone is like um Why did you close three loans and I said I you know what why are you pull what I Said I it's not illegal I have a first Mortgage a second mortgage and a and a Home equity line of credit that's Perfectly legal and he goes and you can Hear the guy that's not they're all First mortgages and I said I read every One of those documents not one of them Said they were first mortgages and they Don't first mortgages don't say they're First mortgages it's the placement of The mortgage placement of the lean that Determines is their first second or Third so it's possible that I wouldn't Have known it certainly that I could Have read those documents and not known And he's like that's not true and he's Screaming and uh so I go yeah listen and And he said well you're taking out all Cash why are you taking out all cash I

Said well I mean I don't know if this This sounds I said I don't know this Might be illegal I said I don't know I Said I mean I work for for a I work for A um a labor company labor on Demand I pull out my business card you Can call so I'm like I work for labor on Demand And I said um we we hire a lot of guys That like they don't have bank account So the company pays them and then Usually I'll pull out money and I'll I'll cash their checks because they get Charge like 10% of these check cashing Companies and I feel bad I know the Checks are good so I just deposit them I Mean I don't think that but I don't I Don't know if that's illegal I don't Think that's illegal like if if and he's Like no no no that's fine it's it's That's that's a decent thing to do it's Not that's fine I'm like oh okay so Where're so he's talking to the guy you Know wovi is screaming hollering he says Um uh he's doing that you know he's Going back and forth back and forth so We're going back and forth back and I'm Just derailing everything this guy says And at one point he says um he's Screaming he's committing fraud we want Him arrested and he's like I don't know What to charge him with and he's like You know he he's Saying these aren't you know how did you

Know how did you he's like hey look how Did you even do this what I go look I Didn't do this I said I came to wacovia I met with a loan officer I said I need A first mortgage I need to pull out like $100,000 I want to start buying houses He goes that's right you own another House here too don't you I said I do I Said we're putting a new roof on it We're going to build an addition we're Putting in a pool I'm buying one right Down the street from that one I said so I'm I'm obviously I'm pulling out money MH I said so I told him I need $100,000 They said that's fine we can we they Said they could only get me $100,000 Out for something about Fanny made Guidelines which is true and I and I Said so then she said I I can get you I Can send you to a friend of mine who's a Loan officer she can get you a second Mortgage which she did I said then I Told her she could only get me 100,000 Or so 190,000 the other and she said you Should get an equity line of credit if You're going to be doing like you know Um renovating properties so she sent me To somebody they got me an equity line Of credit I said I said you know I Haven't committed fraud I said I Wouldn't know how to commit fraud if you Told me I said said what sounds more Reasonable a guy that works for a labor Company ripped off a bunch of banks for

Over half a million dollars I said or Some loan officers got together and did Something illegal I said there's a Problem at the bank and he says I think You've got a problem with the bank and This guy goes nuts and while he's Screaming he needs to be arrested this Is fraud my loan officers have not done Anything illegal they wouldn't do that He says look at his ID his ID is fake His ID starts with 0000 South Carolina ID start with 00 This Guy's in California he has no idea So when he says that he go he the the Detective looks P looks at my ID and he Goes listen he said this is a real ID I Ran this guy through in cic he said this Is Gary Sullivan And I and I looked at him I goow I'm not Gary Sullivan I go come on bro what are We doing here and he goes I know Gary I Know and he Says I'm going to take him downtown I'm Going to talk to my whatever Lieutenant Whoever captain and I'm going to fill Out a police report and I'll let you Know and he hangs up yeah I get up They've taken the handcuffs off I stand Up as we're walking out with the Detectives as we're all kind of walking Out he goes hey you have an ID do you Have a driver's license mhm and I went Um I do but it's in like Nevada M and he Goes oh that's right he goes you're from

Vegas and he looks at the two deputies And they all kind of grin and I think he Ran me through Ncic which means he ran a Statewide Criminal database which means he thinks I've been arrested three times for Prostitution in Vegas ah right I listen I'm Humiliated I was just like and the grin Told me every and I was just like oh man And so one of the cops goes uh here give Me the ID takes the ID he goes I'll Check and see because I have to follow Him back in my Car so he goes and by the way my car is Is in the Name Michael eer so Michael eer he Doesn't have a photograph of Michael Eert right because you can't pull up Photographs from other states So he doesn't have a photograph but he Knows that's not my car and he asked me Whose car are you driving I said oh That's my boss Michael eer I said that That's my boss and he goes oh Michael Eer I said yeah exactly and he's like And I'm like oh my God so I'm thinking He knows Michael eer knows it's Registered in North Carolina knows the Address which is where I was currently Living that's a problem so the police Officer or the um sorry Deputy grabs the ID walks outside comes back I have no Idea if this homeless guy has a a

Driver's license in Nevada I don't know He had nothing on him he comes back and He he does he have a valid license he Goes yeah it's valid and he hands it to Him or he hands me the ID and he says uh He said he goes it's valid he looked at Him he goes yeah Well he said it it says he's like he Says he's 5 foot1 like it was like 5'10 5'11 I'm clearly not 510 or 5'11 and They all look at me and I go fellas with A good pair of shoes like that and they All go H follow us Gary yeah I follow them back To the police station Becky is calling Me on the phone screaming her head off Now I'd always told Becky if I ever get Arrested Yeah immediately go get me a lawyer the Lawyer will be able to get me out on Bond cuz it'll I'll be arrested for Something stupid M I said it'll be Something like trying to cash a check You know a fake check or uh you know use Of somebody said it won't be all my IDs Are real so it won't be for for a fake ID so my ident my ID won't be in Question and most most um police Departments and sheriffs at that time Did not run your fingerprints through Aphys so they didn't because they charge Them for that so they don't they don't Typically do it unless your identity is In question mine wouldn't be I have a

Valid driver's license or a valid ID in That state so I go back she's screaming She's like oh my God you don't Understand I just checked the I just Checked the um just checked the internet The Website you are number one on the secret Services most wanted list and I was like I got bigger problems right now they Just held me in the bank I'm following Them right now and she was like yeah get On the get on the interstate go go I Cannot go the detectives in front of me The cops are behind me they're escorting Me to the police listen she's like oh my God run run I go look not a NASCAR Driver like I'm Driving it's it's a it's a sports car But it's not going to outrun a radio or A helicopter like I I'm not that's not Going to happen I know it looks it seems Nice I'm not that guy um so I was like I Can't I said look you don't understand I Was in handcuffs 30 minutes ago I just Talked my way out of him I'm going to Get out of this and I and I said the Worst that happens is I'll be Arrested as Gary solivan you can get me A police you can get me a um an attorney He can get me out and she goes I'm not Getting you an attorney I'm not getting You out on bond I'm not risking Everything I've got for you because she Has all the money we've Got7

800,000 at this point so oh and by the Way she's not even in North Carolina at This point she's relocated to Houston Texas because when this scam broke fell Apart we were going to move to Texas so We were already moving There so but by the way just a small Tangent where do you store money in Situations like this that uh like when You talk about 800,000 you have to keep Moving accounts to make sure it's not Accessible by FBI well there's about 600 Or 700,000 in accounts but keep in mind I'm getting it out in cash like there's No Bitcoin there's no none of that stuff Exists so my you know I I I probably Should have bought diamonds or bought Gold or bought like I don't know any of That all I could think of is go in Slowly be patient mhm um don't drain the Accounts you know fluctuate them like I Was writing getting cashiers checks from One account to another so the balances Were doing this you know they weren't Just going they were doing this and then One day boom they're gone okay got it so Got it so we got out like whatever we Got we've gotten out like 6 or 700,000 There's still like 600 or 700,000 in the Bank mhm but I I'm not going back I'm Done I actually be honest with you so Well look I I go in so I go into the Police Station and well first she says if you

Go in the police station I'm done if you Get arrested you're done I said well Then I better not get arrested I hang up The phone the cop standing behind my car MH get out I go in the police station I Walk in I fill out the police report he Tells me I got to talk to my captain Real quick can you wait he couldn't Leave me in his cubicle he was can you Wait in the hallway I can't leave you in The I said no no problem so I go and I Wait in the hallway in the hallway are a Whole wall full of on the corkboard um Wanted posters black and white black and White black you know car thief you know Rapist murderer secret Services uh uh Most Wanted and I'm on the I'm on my face is Right there I'm like holy Jesus and you Know everything in me told me run bro Just just H ass right now right Now just go you you've your lucks run Out Not that I even thought he was there Were so many I didn't think he was going To see it but it it just everything in Me just said run the problem is if You've ever been a into a police station You're not getting out of it you Understand get a lot of cops around well Not just that but they buzz you in yeah You get in the elevator you have to Punch in a code you have to punch in a Code to get back out of the elevator you

Have to punch in a code to get into the Next door there's like I mean it it Was it's impossible like I'm never I'm Not going to get in the elevator so guy Comes back up to the cop comes back up He said hey Gary appreciate it no Problem my captain said we're good we're Going to wait for a phone call from the No wait the the district attorney called Already they're looking into It um I'm going to go ahead and let you Go I go downstairs he walks me out to my Car he said look do me a favor he's like We we do have some serious questions at This point like the district jorney say There's there's some something up he Said I said not with me and he said 'well just do me a favor he don't don't Leave town I said bro I own two houses Here I'm not going anywhere I said I'm Telling you right now I said wovi they They up and he's like I believe You I believe you said or he said Whatever he's like I hope you I hope They were right I'm sure you're right Okay so I get in my car I leave I go to Two more Banks pull out more money but At one point I go into a bank and like Two of the Cashers practically slam into Each other trying to get to the phone And I can tell something's up like oh no No no no something's up so I back I get My car back out one of them kind of runs Out and looks at tag number you know so

I drive I get in the interstate I go you Know Becky of course she's you know I'm Sorry I I love you I would have never Done I was just scared I Understand I go Becky sounds like a Handful oh my God Bro so I go all the way back to Charlotte I pack up my apartment I drive All the way to Houston with my entire Apartment packed up by the way in a U-Haul like the next day the next Morning we she's got people there Packing it up movers Mhm we pack it up I drive the U-Haul all The way to Houston takes a couple Days I unload it into we have uh some Guys unload it into a uh into a storage Unit because I'm going to stay with Becky until I find my own apartment as We're driving around the neighborhood Super nice she's living in like whatever Like that like that 20th floor or Something of some huge highrise great Apartment we drive by and I go oh stop The car and I I I I want to get out I There one of those cone things where There's flyers for the house for a house I jump out and I get the flyer and and She's like what are you doing I go I Just want to you know I look looking at The flyer and she says uh I don't want To do a scam here I want to live here This place is nice I love it here and I Went right I understand I said I'm not

Going to I said no but I have a find an Apartment mhm and she goes oh you just I'm just so disgusting you can't SP Stand to spend even a couple weeks with Me you just and she goes just ballistic She screaming at the top of her lungs And I know she's going to get me caught MH she's never going to get me out right She's already told me that mhm so we go Back to the apartment we go Upstairs I was so scared of this this Chick bro I I was so scared I remember I Was going up in the Elevator and this girl gets on on this Clearly a stripper mhm I mean drop dead Just but wearing stripper clothes yep And I'm star like and and as soon as she Got on Becky gave me that with the face And I'm like this I'm like staring in The Corner and never look at the girl and I Remember we get off the elevator Bing it Opens I bolt off it Becky bolts bolts Office and I off the elevator and I Remember she squeals um I bet you just Love the that and the girl as The elevator doors are closing she goes Hey I thought that was funny so I go to The apartment yeah we we have a Screaming match kind of do I want to Split up the money she tells me she's Not going to give me split the money why Um because she said you can go somewhere Else and do this again you'll have a

Million dollars right in six months you Know I have to live off this money did She threaten you oh she threatened the It was it was funny too because the Conversation back and forth I remember Saying no I want halfen and she goes and She said uh I'll give you $10,000 I said You're out of your mind I said I said I'm tell right now you come up with Something reasonable I'll take all of it And she said um what did she say I said I'll take all of it she goes and what Escaping that U-Haul they're going to She the cops are going to be looking for In 5 minutes and I went I just remember Thinking oh wow and keep in mind all of My IDs everything are in the storage Unit that she has a key to like I'm not Getting those it's over yeah I got an ID Right now that says my name is Michael Eert yeah I driving a I I got I'm Driving a U-Haul Van yeah sounds like She has a lot of negotiation leverage Right so we start arguing back and forth And she says $100,000 I'll give you $100,000 I said I'll take it she counts It out uh counts out the $100,000 later When I recount it it wasn't even 100 it Was like 98,000 that's fine it's fine so Um but you know we've got them all Marked you know 2,000 5,000 6,000 she's Like 2,000 5,000 that's 12 that's she Ends up um stiffing me that's fine it's Not my money so I I take it I end up you

Know I take it I leave and as I'm Leaving she'd always called me before on The phone and begged and pleaded and Cried I messed up please give me a Chance I'm sorry I'm I I'll take my Medication I'm sorry I thought it was Better I thought it was okay and I Remember walking out I put my cell phone On the counter and just walked out went Downstairs got in the truck and drove um And uh Drove when I got To Louisiana I stopped at Baton Rouge And got a I mean at some point I stopped And I got like I think I got a room or Something at one point I know I stopped So you drove without a plan essentially I drove back To Charlotte to get my car got it so I Can't be driving I can drive this right So I stopped at Baton Rouge at one point And got a a cell phone you know like a a Burner phone like a Verizon Virgin Mobile or something uh one of those Little phones so I bought one I call a Few people at home back home call my mom Um she's in tears crying my dad's Yelling in the background I call uh what Your mom just a small tangent what what Did your mom and dad say you remember Anything stand out to you is No my dad you know Pi you know well I Hope you're happy you know your mother Every time someone mentions your name

Your mother cries which is funny to me Cuz like growing up like he was never Concerned about her crying you know so It was like since when did you care you Know and I just so I mean my dad like He's an alcoholic you know he's been Sober for two Years a month and a half drunk drunken Binge or drinking sorry drinking binge And then sober for six months and then Did it again then sober you know it just Went back and forth yeah and uh in and Out of uh alcohol you know drug programs Uh but like I said worked for State Farm And State Farm he was a top selling Manager and so what they would do is They they' put him into a 30-day program And and and I mean like a like he has to Stay there and they had they were the Only ones that had that kind of control Cuz they're like you're going to do this And you're going to pass it we're firing You you know Know he he made a lot of money and he Made a lot of money for State Farm and He hired he hired and trained a ton of Agents and he had one of the top Performing Agencies so he was worth a lot to them And uh but so I I end up what ends up Happening is I'm driving through I I get That phone that I was telling you about And I call so I call talk to my mom She's you know she's crying she's like I

Love you so much you I just want to make Sure you're you're safe I end up calling Uh Susan Barker which was one of the Brokers that worked for me at the time Call her and I say hey what's going on How's you like oh Matt and you know What's going on FBI is everywhere like They're they're they've been talking to Everybody they you know and this has Been it's like a year and a half at this Point and she's like it's not you know They're they come around every once in a While everybody's gone in everybody's Cooperating everybody's talking Everybody's blaming you um including her And uh and so as we're talking she said Look I I've the main FBI agent on the Case she told me if I ever spoke with You to have you call her and I was like Yeah I'm good so she goes her name is Candace and she she wants you to call Her she say at least call her for God's Sakes maybe you could just turn yourself In maybe maybe you can negotiate just Like a couple years like cuz they're if They're not going to catch you then then Maybe turning yourself maybe it'll help At least hear her out and I was like Okay all right you're right hang up the Phone I call Candace she picks up the Phone I go hey I said she goes who's This and I go this is Matt Cox and she Goes hey hello Mr Cox how are you and I Go I'm I'm doing okay how's it going I

Understand you want to talk to me she Goes I do I said what can I do for you She go you can turn yourself in I go Well that's not going to happen I said What else do you need and she said I Think that you should think about Turning yourself in I said why well what Am I looking at she said well that's not How it Works the way it works is you turn Yourself in And you know we take that into Consideration I said no no no no I said That's not good enough I said I'm not Not stupid enough to turn myself in and Hope for the best MH so she says um well let's talk about This and I said well what am I looking At she go I don't really know I I can't You know really I can't tell you that And she I said well well then we don't Really have anything to talk about she Go well wait a second she said let me Hold on let me call the US attorney Maybe we can work something out so she Calls the US she so I said okay I'll Call you Back and she Said well give me your phone number I'll Call you and I no no no I said I um I'll Call you I said I'm going to hang up the Phone I'm going to turn the phone off I Said for all I know you're triangulating This phone call right now or something

You know and she Sayes oh give me a Break she's you're not that important And I I remember Thinking who do you think you are like Like she like right like you're you're Just some little fraudster guy running Around you know like you're not a Terrorist MH you know like and I Almost I almost was like okay here's my Number which she probably already had MH But I almost like was like okay I'll Wait for your call and left my phone I Said no you know what I said I'm GNA Hang up the phone I'm gonna turn it off Anyway I'll I'll call you back she said All right whatever I hang up I turn off The phone it turns out I found out later When I ordered the Freedom of Information Act she actually immediately Called US Marshals and they immediately Called took the phone number and tracked Back the phone and immediately had two Marshals from uh Baton Rouge or go Immediately to the place where I had Been Mhm damn oh listen yeah I mean they were Fast yeah she's and she's good too not Just that I I made the initial calls Sitting there in that where I went and Bought the phone it was like a gas Station there was also like a a subway Station I had ordered like a Subway I Was eating a Subway playing on my Computer program the phone and make

Phone calls so by the time I talked to Her and they're they're driving I by That point I walked and gotten into the Vehicle my vehicle and I leave but you Know who knows I don't know if they Showed up 30 minutes late I don't know Like I could have hung out like oh I'm Just going to finish my food could have Shown up so I go I I call her back an Hour or two later she says Listen you know the first time he wasn't Hadn't got back with her then he did Then he came back he said seven years He's got to turn him self in here so Okay seven years that's that seems like A lot and I was like seven years and That's seven years for for I goes that And I kept saying is that seven years For everything and she goes yeah that's For everything I was like that's Everything like everything and that Happened like in Atlanta like in some Stuff that you don't know about she said Look what's important is you turn Yourself in in Tampa and I was like okay Well I'm closer to Atlanta why wouldn't I turn myself in in Atlanta and she's Like look you know uh you don't want to Do that you don't want to do that well Because that would have been the Secret Service would have gotten credit if I'd Walked in there right so you know and I Don't know anything about rivalries and How they work at that time I do now but

So we go back and forth back and forth And I continually ask her does that Include Atlanta and everything and at Some point I realized like oh she's just Not answering and so finally I said Listen you keep dodging this Question and she said all I can speak For is Tampa so if you come back to Tampa and you cooperate against everyone Seven Years and she's telling me she wants me To cooperate against my ex-wife and I'm Like I'm not going to do that I said my Ex-wife didn't do anything she doesn't Know anything she didn't do anything She's never you know well that's not What I heard then she's going on and on Um and I was like no no I was like oh Wow I was like so that's just for and She's like that's right I said all right We're done she no wait I can call the Atlanta us attorney I said nah lady I Wouldn't believe you if you told me Water was wet I don't trust you and I Hung up the phone threw it out the Window and I end up going to Charlotte drop off the U-Haul Van go to my I I would brought it back To the dealer it's not like ianded I Brought it back um so I I bring bring it Back I go to my old apartment in Downtown Charlotte and I remember thinking I Would be okay and I know by this

Point that they they knew Michael Eckert's name they had the address in Charlotte so I know they they by this Point it's been five six days so I know They've tracked him back There so I figured if I could get my car I'm fine so I go into the apartment Complex and it you know it's like five It's one of those four five six story Apartment you know those are parking Things that stack up so I go into this You know underground it's not Underground but whatever this parking Garage thing so I go in I'm on like the Third floor or something I I look at my Car you know and I I get in my car and I Remember as soon as I walk drove out of The the parking garage I was like I'm Good so I can go ahead and pull across The street and stop at Starbucks so I Stop at Starbucks I walk into Starbucks I order Starbucks I'm standing there Waiting for the barista I look over and It's two people from the apartment Complex staring at Me like that's I'm like and they're They're whispering and pointing and and I remember thinking this is like the Fifth of the month I hadn't paid my rent I hadn't been there so I thought makes Sense maybe they did they like I'm Picturing an eviction notice or a Three-day notice on my door something And I'm like okay and then one of them

Bolts out the back the woman there's a Guy and a girl the woman walk runs out The back he standing there staring at me I get my my my my vinty vanilla latte All right I get my little I get my frr Drink yeah so I get my frr drink I I Walk out I get into the car he follows Me get in the car I set everything up I Put my seat belt on I'm okay he's Standing there staring at me I you know I'm thinking something's wrong like What's up and all of and I'm I check to See there's no traffic I'm good I'm About to about to leave and he starts Screaming he's right here he's right Here I look in the rear of your mirrror There's two guys running towards the Back of my Car I punch it and I take off sounds Dramatic wasn't that dramatic I'd Already there was no cars I knew there Was no cars already pulling out you know Wasn't like a TJ hooker where I jumped Over the slid across the uh the hood and SL you know they didn't catch the car And hang on the back but you know I so They're running and I boom hit it did You spill the coffee or no cuz it was One of those little things it was Actually but but it you're making it Sound like you were pretty calm weren You panicking here I was terrified yeah Terrified So you you're under under fear You still operate like yeah I operate

Like I it's funny you say that because The the Secret Service when they talk to these guys They all the people that they spoke with Said the same thing over and over again The guy was a professional he never Seemed upset he never seemed agitated he Always he was never in a hurry yeah he You know like but most of the time I I Wasn't because I you know it wasn't Until the police got involved or the law Federal law enforcement got involved That I I started really you know getting Anxious so at that point I drive I take Off I drive about a mile down the road Who are the two guys by the way was it I Thought it was FBI I ordered the Freedom Of Information Act when I got to prison At some point you know in the future And it was it was US Marshals right so sounds pretty dramatic To me US Marshals running towards your Car you pull it I mean I mean you know But it's all right it's hard not to tell It like it's dramatic I understand it Was there was not much traffic it was Okay it's not like their you know their Fingers were at the back of the car They're holding on you know but it was Yeah if I had waited an an extra 20 Seconds yeah they would have been on my Car they would have been right there at The door did you consider giving up There or

No no all I could think of was listen my My instinct is get out is go go go go go Go you're already on the run I'm already In trouble it's not like they're going To be they're going to it's they're Going to add anything although to be Honest you know it only got worse Because at that point actually at that Point I drive down the road I stop at a Homeless facility I survey three guys I'm a mile down the road like looking Back on I think what were you thinking But there were three three homeless guys That were in their early 30s and they Were they were all Caucasian that's hard To find so trust me I've looked spent Hours before track finding these guys so That's like the the the golden thing You're looking for is white guys in Their 30s right cuz that's I was in my 30s that I wasn't an old man like I am Now so I I survey them I drive straight To Nashville yeah get to Nashville drive through an area called Uh Green Hills Um well I first I when I got to Nashville I stayed the night and the Next day I went into I'm gonna say up a UPS Store it was actually a Kinkos there Used to be they used to be called Kinkos But remember Kinkos they got bought by Um FedEx I feel like oh is it FedEx FedEx okay then it was a FedEx store so

I go in there and you give them like 50 Bucks or something or 20 bucks or Something they'd give you like a 100 Business cards so I get a I go get a a Burn a phone number a burner phone I go In there I make up oh I call and get a Phone number from HQ the local HQ I come Up with the name manufactured funding Group I've got two phone numbers I get Business cards made with a name one of The guys name that I surveyed was um uh His his actual name was um Joseph Marian Carter Jr I went by Carter so I get Business cards made of of Joseph Carter I then drive through Green Hills Took him like an hour uh to get the card So I'm driving through Green Hills I'm Planning on going to an apartment but I'm still I don't have an idea I don't Have anything like I'm I'm wondering how What am I going to do how am I going to Get a place to stay I'm going to stay in A hotel like what am I doing I'm I'm Using an an ID that the cops are looking For so as I'm driving trying to find This big apartment complex there's a guy Putting a sign in the front yard of like A townhouse CU several tow houses and I Probably in his 60s I pull in jump out Of the car and I said hey is that this For rent he said yes it is I said oh Okay uh yeah can I see it sure I go in Check it out come back downstairs it's Perfect said listen I uh you know I work

For a company you know manufactured Funding group boom handam thing I said I I've been in in uh uh Europe for the Last I forget what I said I said England I had some little town outside of London Say in you know whatever Dexter you know London for the past 5 years I don't Really have any any credit but I said I I can put down a double the security Deposit or you know whatever you need Here's my business card he looked at me And he looked at my car and he goes You look like an honest young man he Said I'll uh I'll take the first month's Rent and and a deposit mhm and he said Now go get a lease right now and I said Okay and I said oh okay filled out a Lease right then gave me the keys like Nice like very trusting in in in that Town well that oh yeah but there must Have been also something about you where You're just I mean I don't got a nice Car I know you're going to get a lot of Comments that say White Privilege but That's that's what I I think the Charisma has something to do with it Yeah um well I so he gave I appreciate That so he gave me the Keys listen I ordered all Of all of uh Joseph Carter's Vital Information right like all of his uh Birth certificate social security card Everything uh that night mhm from like a Kingo or some of the I forget

But from some one of these places I went Online you could go online back then Right like there wasn't Wi-Fi everywhere So I ordered the stuff it shows up a Couple days later I take that Information I go and I get a driver's License we're about within like seven or Eight days I've got a driver's license In his name m i get in that car U Michael Eckert's car I drive it all the Way back to Nashville I leave it Long-term parking get on a plane fly Back to Nashville go in and buy a brand new car Was brand new it was a couple years old But from like CarMax Mhm within 2 weeks I am completely 100% Set up I start dating for three four Months that gets really boring and uh Where where again in Nashville you said Nashville okay got it so I started Dating a bunch of chicks and then I end Up meeting this one girl by the way are You lonely here cuz you're on on the run Is that listen being I'm telling you Right now being on the Run was the best Part of my life really everybody you how All these guys say it was horrible and I Was I was so concerned and looking over My shoulder and it wasn't I wasn't keep In mind I I've gotten I've gotten five Or six traffic tickets while on the run I went to traffic school as someone else I got so many traffic tickets in his

Name I went to traffic school as him Like if I got pulled over like I'm not Concerned so your confidence just was And I'm I'm driving driving a vehicle in The name of the driver's license that I Have that was issued by that state yeah Full coverage insurance I'm not an idiot I'm not driving around a stolen car with A broken tail light and a body in the Trunk like I'm covered like I'm not Concerned about the local cops uh PL Plus you're going to Starbucks sipping Your coffee and driving away from uh US Marshall that was you could start Believing that it's impossible to catch You that is exactly what it is it's it's Every time I just kept getting more and More emboldened more and more cocky Arrogant like they're not going to catch I'm too good you know which is great Until they catch you and So I I meet a girl named Amanda Gardner Well what I end up doing is keep mind I've only got 100,000 or so so I go and I start buying houses in the area in This area called JC napor next to it's Just close to downtown and I buy these Houses and I start Rec I buy them for Like 60 70,000 and I record the sales at 210 190 2205 that sort of thing same Thing and I refinance the house as I Start pulling out Money I meet this girl uh Amanda Garder She we hit it off within a few months

She's moved in to we move into a house In that area I renovate a house we move In There I borrow $3.5 million and I'm Buying houses now I'm buying houses Recording the value I start all over you Know I borrow like whatever $3 and5 Million I meet a Amanda we move in Together uh we're we're we're buy do you Tell her do you tell her she kind of you Know what she knew was that you know It's it's it's odd right I have no Photographs everything I own is brand New she's like you don't there's nothing In this house that's more than four Months old so 6 months old you have no Photographs you have no internet Presence you have no you know it's every Stick of clothing is brand new you don't Have old pairs of jeans you tell their Stories about the past of any like is There a Fabricated the init initially there was A fabricated version that I owned a I Owned a mortgage Company um my typical story was like I Owned a mortgage company and I got Bought out by Household Bank started Doing very well I got bought out by Household Bank I have a no non-compete Clause I got you know I ended up with Like half a million dollars after paying Off all my bills uh and just decided to Kind of travel around the the US and now

I'm here I'm going to start renovating Houses But that you know you don't call home Nobody calls you your family doesn't Call you you tell stories about your mom Your dad your brother your sister Friends I don't know any of these Friends never seen any of these friends They never call you they never you know It's just like it's like a so at Some point I basically just said to her Look I'm listen at one point I had to Have a check cut I refinanced the house Right and I had like I want to say I'm Going to say something like it might Have been 30,000 but let's say 20,000 I Had a $20,000 check cut to Amanda Gardner M cuz you have to have these Checks you can't have them cut to me so I would say hey there's a second Mortgage on there and I'd provide a Second mortgage or I'd provide you know I' provide different things and I knew If I I need names of people to cut these Things to so I had a check cut for Whatever so I remember we're at dinner One night this is before she really Knows who I am and I said hey uh I said Oh and she goes oh did you had a refine She goes how'd that thing go you're Refinance I oh thank God you said that Boom I said I need you to deposit this Give check for 20,000 she's like um I Can I can I can go tomorrow and I can

Deposit it and I um um and I'm like no No I'm like look it's fine just deposit It so I can get as soon as it clears I I I'll get you a cashier check um I was Like No just deposit it and keep it in Your bank it's fine so she's Like what is going on you know and so we Have this conversation and I tell her Look People are looking for me who law Enforcement which ones all of them you Know she's like that doesn't even wa for What I Go mostly bank fraud and she's like well How are they not finding youh I mean Everybody you know people know you like You know your general contractor which I Met four months before this guy six Months before this one two months before You know she's like so and so so and so So and I'm like right right well I Saidwell she's like I mean they've got Your name they've got you I go well That's identity theft and she was like What do you mean I saidwell my name's Not you know my name is not it's not Joseph Carter and what is your what is your Name I go look you know it's it's you Don't need don't even worry about it This is what's happening this is where I'm at this has been months into the Relationship I mean this is or i' say Maybe a month or two in but you know she

Was just too inquisitive and oh I know What it was she found like 40 $3,000 in Cash in my freezer one night that was Another thing that happened she went to Get a popsicle and she opened up the the Flip to get a popsicle and she opened The wrong one and it was all cash and She was like like you know I the other Day you know in this conversation she Like the other day I opened up the Popsicle box and there's cash and I'm Like so I kind of explain it but I had a Feeling she's not going to she's going To be okay with this you know so she was Okay she was okay with it like I mean to Me that's just a fascinating Conversation to have like it was a great Conversation because often times in Relationships you learn about each other And you find out new things and here you Find out that's a doozy yeah it's a good One to find Out the name you're using is not your Real name and the Secret Service the FBI And everybody else are looking for you Yeah and you're like to be honest you're Not a violent criminal so it's like and I you know you know but she didn't know My name like she was like She and I told her I said look if you Start digging if you find out my name Like I'll leave like there's certain Things that catch you staying in contact With people that you know that's how you

Get caught you know going back to see People that's how you get caught you Know um telling people who you are That's how you get caught and I was like So I'm Joseph Carter everything's fine and she was Like okay you know in keep in mind too This girl do you oh your car is broken Or your car's not doing well take it and Trade it in we'll go get you another car We go get you you know an Infinity you Know FX or whatever you know a $55,000 $60,000 vehicle she's Driving the equivalent of a a beat up Old Nova you know I mean it's you want To go on vacation we'll go on vacation You want to do this you want to do that So you know we're buying houses I I'm We're we're renovating houses we're We're building brand new houses we're Buying Lots like she's like in the Middle of this like holy Jesus there's Hundreds of thousands of dollars in the Bank in our bank account uh her bank Account I open up a corporation in her Name she's opening up bank accounts She's got web there's websites it's it's A lot and while this is Happening we start seeing a a a friend Of hers so this other girl comes in the Picture her name's Trina and um Trina is Um semi- lesbian So is is this like a sexual thing or Actual relationship no it's no it's more

Like a she's coming over a couple times A week okay so we've got a ton of tons Going On uh And I put this so while this is Happening I I end up coming out in like Several magazine so I'm thinking this Whole thing's dying down but it's not Dying down because now I just got caught And handcuffed in a bank walked out of The police station outran Marshals Although that that part the Marshall Thing never was never in the papers but Um the getting caught and handcuffed in The bank when that hit the papers that's Everywhere bro that's huge you know Suddenly Chicago Tribune's running a Series The fugitives um I'm in Bloomberg Business week they run articles article Called you know sharks in the housing Pool uh then you've got a Fortune Magazine comes out with a thing because By now guess what Becky's been caught oh Becky Becky oh Becky is she in Houston Or whatever in Houston got caught and Did she but gangster bro like the way She here's the thing hey there you go no Oh no she told on me immediately oh she Did oh no it's fine she do the right Thing so here here's what's funny about That I don't know about that she here's What she says loyalty is everything in This world my friend that you and I Disagree on I just took off I just took

Off still on her and left her with with With listen with like six or like five Or $600,000 is what I left her with it's Not it's not all about money Matthew It's also about just like you know ride Or die there's a meaning to that my God I'm sorry go ahead she told she said Everything well here's what what when I Say gangster when she gets caught yeah Um they come in she's in the middle of Beauty school she's paid for beauty School she's going through beauty school She's going to open like a salon or Something so she's in there cutting hair In a class you know on a mannequin and All of a sudden like five or six Secret Service agents come in guns drawn Screaming get on the ground get on the Ground she said everybody dropped the Ground she said I'm sitting there with Scissors Going you know they grab her they Handcuff her they bring her in and the Whole time now at that point she was Rebecca well she was yeah her name was Rebecca hickey she went by Becca she so She's Rebecca hickey which is you know It's she's got a Texas driver's license The whole thing and they're screaming at Her and they she they put her in the car And they're driving the whole way she go The guy the secret service agent told me 45 minutes she's telling us you're Losing your job bro you're losing I mean

He he's like I I couldn't believe it Like we we got pictures of her we're Like this is you she's like that's not Me are you in insane look at that chubby Little thing she would not budge till They actually put her hand on the Scanner and she goes okay I'm I'm Rebecca Hal what do you Need they're like where's Matt cooch She's I have no idea that left me Like a year ago So um so but she contributed to the Story to the legend that's already Growing oh oh because she was Interviewed by uh Fortune Magazine and It was horrendous the article is Horrendous he was abusive he he's a Don Juan that that forced me to fall in love With him commit mortgage fraud and then Took all the money and left by the way They found like 40 or 50 Grand on her And maybe another 30 or 40 in her bank Account and no other Money yeah where's the other money um so Anyway and she was by the way she got Caught she was in communication with her Family Was so she's talking to her mom that's When she got caught Tim and her mother Through multiple conversations one Conversation being Mom I'm doing fine I'm I can't tell you where I am you know Exactly but I I'm in Houston Texas I'm Fine next one 6 months later I enrolled

In Beauty School Houston Texas Beauty School how many are there Y and her mom Bipolar I just want to see my daughter Yeah I'm going to call the Secret Service yep I'm doing the right thing Yeah and honestly she is doing the right Thing so um so you're getting more and More Famous nationally right so I've got all These houses you you're you're having Threesome with Amanda and Trina and and What ends up happening is we end up Going on you know and listen Amanda and I we've gone on we've gone to Greece Italy um Croatia um we're we're we've Gone we're going on multiple just Multiple trips And we just gotten back from like a 10day cruise of the Greek Isles And there's we get home and Amanda goes Online and there's a Blog about dat line About their one of their new specials Called the thief of Hearts and that's me apparently I'm the Thief of Hearts and I'm apparently going around And I'm and it's it's based on you know Rebecca's you know Becky's story that I'm wooing women to commit fraud Stealing all the money and then leaving Them to hold the bag Well they interviewed her they're Interviewing multiple people multiple in

My uh in my case they put together this They're putting together an Episode going to be released in a few in A month or so so I'm terrified I've at This point I've been on the run three Years and I'm like I there's lots of Things things I could care less about Fortune I don't know anybody that reads Fortune Bloomberg come on I hang out With I'm hanging out with contractors And laborers and you know I'm not Hanging out with these guys so you know Local news who cares you know even even Local news channels you know I don't Care but dat line there weren't 400 Channels back then you know so Dateline Comes out even if you don't see it the First time they're going to rerun it in 3 months or 6 months or 5 year 10 years From now they might rerun it again my Face is going to be on it so I could be Perfectly fine five years from now in One day I the Barista that I go to every Every other day look looks at dat line And goes oh my God that's Mr Johnson or That's Mr Thomas or whatever so the Point is is that I was like I got to go I can't stay here I got to get out of The country so I was going to go to um Well we really started doing research And Amanda ended up saying Australia Australia at the time I don't know how It is now but at the time if you went to Australia with like it's like

$100,000 and a business plan you could Become a permanent resident alien you You you can't vote but you can buy Property you can open a business but you Can't get a job and they didn't require A fingerprints so there's no criminal um Background check now if you wanted to be A citizen you have to get an FBI Criminal background check like I no I'm So I was like wow I can go there and Start a business and I'm going to start Show up with a couple million so what we Do is we start refinancing houses we Start pulling out money as quick as we Can I'm asking guys laborers guys that I Work with my general contractor my real Estate agent hey man can you cash this Check for six grand you C nobody says no Everybody yeah no problem no problem no Few guys like yeah man if you give me 10% yeah I'll give you 10% so that's Happening we're pulling out cash Um one Day a Manda gives Trina a bunch of Checks and asks her to cash them that Sparks a Conversation that like what it was Happening she confides In by this point by the way Amanda knows Who I am MH so by this point she's Actually came across the letter that I Wrote to my parents when I left Tampa so She's figured out who I Am she tells Trina his name's Matt Cox

Dat Line's coming out we're goingon to We're leaving we got to get a bunch of Cash and Trina goes okay I'll cash the Checks what she does instead is she Calls the Secret Service they watch my House for three days I come home one Day they pull the cars Up and they arrest Me so you know it's a little bit longer Than that but that's shorter just a Short version of me getting arrested and You know I probably skipped over so Simple because you gotten the way with Much more complex Situations it's women man it's women uh Joking they also are the thing that make Life worthwhile listen God bless Trina She did the right thing it honestly Based on there you go back to the right Thing but I mean based on what she saw Uhuh based on what the Secret Service Told her And what in the the articles that she's Reading I'm a bad guy I mean I'm a bad Guy in general right so I don't deserve Loyalty I I don't think so um I'm Ripping people off and she's thinking That her friend is in Danger you know the FBI saying I have a Weapon he's he's dangerous he's got a Weapon you know we believe he's armed And dangerous when I was in Florida I Had a concealed weapons permit but I Gotten rid of both my guns when I was

Placed on probation I've never had one Since I've never touched a gun since but They use that to say you know they said Oh he had a concealed weapon for him Okay well then he's armed in dangerous Like there's these little things and Think they're telling her read this Article look he forces girls to fall in Love with them then he he that's what She's going to do your friend so she Negotiated a also I think she got 10,000 I think which is embarrassing I'm I'm Ashamed that she she got $110,000 and said everything yeah and And told them this is where he is his Name is Joseph Carter you know he's uh You know this is where he is they watch It they grab me they arrest me they Bring me Downtown you know what what did what did You feel like when you got it didn't Feel good bro it was bad it was a bad Day it was a bad day first of All Casina Royale was coming out on Friday yeah it was the first Daniel Craig as James Bond and the whole week I'd been telling Amanda I'm want to go See Casina Royale she go okay well on Saturday we're going to go to the Festival I go that's fine but on Friday Cina and she's like right Cina Royale And she okay by the way on Thursday I Thought we could go to dinner that's Fine but on Friday Cino Royale and when

They put the handcuffs on you remember The first thing I thought of I'm not Going to to see see royal I'm Not going to get to see it not going to See and I saw it about about five six Years later and when on the Institution's movie channel you know was Nice it's not the same but um yeah so I They they bring me to Nashville then They transport me to all over the place I go on you know uh Conair they fly me To Oklahoma uh they fly me to Atlanta then I I get go to Atlanta I'm Placed in the US Marshalls holdover uh I Get assigned an attorney go in front of The Judge plead not guilty uh meet with my Attorney you always plead not guilty you Know whenever you think people say can You believe that he plead not guilty That's the first thing nobody walks in And pleads guilty you plead not guilty While you kind of figure out what you're Going to do so I plead not guilty There's no bond uh obviously I've got They caught me when they caught me I had Four or five Passports So that's no good um they they charged Me with uh you know um bank fraud Conspiracy commit bank fraud wire fraud Mail fraud um Passport fraud conspiracy or what was

The other um aggravated identity theft Money laundering use of a fraudulent Passport uh you know and there's like There's there's like you know 30 counts Of this 20 counts of this 20 but none of That matters like even if you just took The dropped all the counts to one count And stacked them it's like 150 something Years not so everything everything they Could and that's so they always say You're looking at 150,000 you know your Lawyers they're like this you're not Looking at that looking at 54 years what That's no better that's no better so uh Yeah so uh my lawyer comes in and sees Me one day you know like our first Meeting and I she says you know I'm uh Millie Millie Dun and she says uh listen I've looked At everything for first they say you're Responsible for it's like 25 or 20 or 30 25 or 26 Million in loss and I'm like that's I've Never that's not true that's not true And I was like you know not even I said Not even potential law there's no way I Mean there's not way and then they come Back she comes back and she says well They're Saying 19 million now it's not Possible I I didn't no so when the FBI Is saying like 40 million they're saying 11.5 in in Tampa plus 40 million for the Mortgage company so that it ends up

Being like plus what I stole on the run It ends up being like 55 million but she Gets them to drop like the 40 like That's that's that's his Brokers that's This that's that drop it and they're Like we he's so done it doesn't matter They Dro that so it ends up it ends up Being like 15 million and then it's down To what is he o they said 9.5 and I got It down to like six million so you know Which you know I'm good for so uh what Ends up happening is they've charged me With all these things and And and she's like okay you know you're Like you can you can complete guilty and You can go with the sentence and Guidelines which is going to be like She's like I mean it depends she said it Might be whatever 54 years she was but If they run them you know concurrent or Consecutive depending on which one they Do she said it most likely it ends up Being like 30 years you know it's like That's not good that's not good good so We kind of go back and forth back and Forth and figure out try and figure out Where I'm what I'm looking At now as we go through the whole thing We end up she ends up with she ends up Saying you Know she knocks off a bunch of stuff That they're saying I did you know um Enhancements because you'll have a base Level en a base level of let's say uh

Level eight you know that should be that Should be maybe a few years but they Start adding on enhancements you know um Did he what did what he do was it Sophisticated yes okay three levels for Sophisticated means um were there more Than how many victims were there more Than 50 victims yes okay that's six more Levels okay uh did he change the Jurisdiction to evade detection yes That's four more levels okay did he they Start adding boom boom and when you Start adding up all those Levels plus your criminal history and I Have a big criminal history because I Was already on Federal proam probation And I committed a new crime on federal Probation so that was another Enhancement and this you know this case So I'm like a category I like category Two or three so they come back and They're Saying I forget it's like 20 well they Don't come back right away but she ends Up saying you're probably looking at 14 Years okay that's reasonable that's Reasonable and so she's Saying so we get the when we get the PSI Back we eventually get what's called a Precentage report they're saying 26 Years well they really said 32 Years and I argued and we got it down to 26 years and four months that's what it Is it's 316 months that's how they do it

In Months doesn't sting that much I guess If you say Months yeah so she says to me Millie Sits down with me and she says Listen you got a call cooperate and I Was like okay and she said because You're you're you're guilty you're Extremely guilty she's like you can't go To Trial and she said so you need to Cooperate I was like well what do I get If a cooperate she said the way it works Is you Cooperate and you hope for the best and I was like are you serious you tell them Everything you know and you hope for the Best and she's like the the part of the Problem is she said everybody in Tampa Has cooperated Rebecca has Cooperated everyone across the board has Cooperated there's nobody that hasn't Cooperated by the way when you say Cooperated you mean they're an inform They told they AKA snitched right they They came in they sat down with their Lawyer and they said this is what he did He did this he did that they showed him Documents yes yes yes that's my Signature I didn't know what that was I You know they everything was my fault They didn't do anything it was all me so They've all cooperated and they haven't Been charged they've been indicted

They're all named as unnamed Co-conspiracy MERS on my indictment so I've got like 12 people even there's Like probably 20 people that are Involved but there's like 12 of them That are so I've got all these names you Know uh KB DL c y you know it's like I Know who that is like I know who DW That's Dave Walker I know who you know I Know who these people are and so there's Just a list of there's like 12 of them You know plus Me uh So and some of some of them walked in And said I'm guilty I just want to be Plead guilty the the the girl uh Allison Mhm she walked in said I I'm I'm too I'm Tired of waiting for you to come get me Walked in with her lawyer and said I Just want to plead guilty and and they Sentenced her and she went to jail she Got like 36 months or 30 Months she called the Prison the she went to the low security It was a female prison at the time Female Camp called the camp and asked For if she could come by for a tour Before she went and they went excuse me She said well I'm going to be there for About two years so I'd like to come and Is there like a tour I can take because I like to know where I'm going me what It's going to be like how I should Prepare and they just started laughing

They said there's no tour sweetie we'll Give you the tour when you get Here you got to love that like yeah I Mean I thought I was I didn't think I Thought I wasn't uh prepared I mean There's no tour so uh Becky Becky got 70 Months but when I got caught and when I Was sentenced they reduced it to like 30 Or no 40 to 40 months they reduced Because she Co Cooperated that Term right do you want to say snitch Well there must be I mean snitch is too Harsh of a word but yeah the red I mean You're Saying I don't know well we can get There we'll get there all right all Right so where did the sentencing end up So I should say first on the Cooperation yeah subject my lawyer Wanted me to cooperate and by this point I realized like you don't have a choice You know no that's that's not true I Could have been a gangster yeah what Does it mean to be a gangster in this Case like a standup guy I could have Said I'll just take it give me 54 years Go yourself I'm not going to snitch On nobody and I know you look at me and You think tough guy mhm I'm not a tough Guy at all I'm not doing 50 some odd Years like I'm not doing it I don't want To do 30 years MH uh you know I was Hoping for you know I I knew it wasn't

Possible but I would have satisfied for Another slap on the hand like I got the First time I really thought I deserved Honestly when you if when my lawyer Asked me what do you really think you're Deserving I thought I I deserve 10 years You know I deserve 10 years But so she said look they want to talk To you so the FBI well first the the Secret Service flies in MH they come In and uh they interview me who's more Terrifying FBI Secret Service you know The Secret Service was so Overwhelmingly Professional uh the FBI and really only The one of the FBI agents that Interviewed me I don't know how he's an Agent I I don't know he was just Ineffective incompetent oh so it's the Competence issue the other one was Candace oh you met her eventually of Course I did of course she's what was Her 511 wearing 3-in heels yeah she's a Giant and in impeccable shape M Attractive one of the angriest human Beings I've ever met and every FBI agent That I've met since then that knows her And I mention they all say what you Think of her and I'm like what why they Go I was like kind of aggressive they Yeah yeah she's a bulldog she's a I mean All of them are like yeah yeah she's uh She's something else like Secret Service Is a little bit more like Prof personal

Very you know it's their job it's like Hey this is just my job they're polite Professional you know that's it so it's Just this is just a this is my 9o5 so But they they they come and they fly in And they meet with me for 3 or 4 Days one of the one of the funny things Is that when I first first sat down with Them um the one guy's name was a Dan Like BR brazowski or something so he he Sits down he says look before we get Started we we need to talk about Something and I said what he said we Know you've hidden money and we you know I was like what and he goes you you know We we know you've got money hidden I Said I don't have any money hidden what Are you talking about my lawyers like do We need to talk I'm like no no no no I Don't have nothing I gave you everything I all the accounts you got everything And he's like you're looking at an Obstruction charge at this point I was Like I I don't have anything and he says We know you have money we know you have Money in different IDs different Identities names and I go what are you Talking about and he pulls out a bank Statement and he slaps it on the counter And he goes you've got money in southern Exchange Bank you've got $190,000 in Southern Exchange Bank and I look at it And I Went um it was in the name Walter hul

And I Went did you call the bank he saids yeah We called the bank I went okay did Anybody call you back and they go he Said what no we've left several messages I said did you go to the bank bank Website he goes yeah I went to the Website I said what do you think and he Went what do you mean was Bank website I Said yeah but it was professional right It was like a professional website and He goes it's a bank website and I go Yeah but it's it was well done MH and he Goes oh God and I go yeah convincing and I went I go it's all an Illusion I said the bank doesn't exist It's a fake bank I made the bank made it When I was in um not even in Tampa I Think I I got into uh Nashville when I Made it and I was like yeah it's an the The bank statements like they're color Bank statements I'm like yeah well no so you know there's no I said a Matter of fact I said who did you leave A I haven't paid for the service in Months and he turned around and he Called it and it went you know you know It it was disconnected and I was like How do you not know that's a bank well It turns out there was a southern Exchange Bank and i' used their Bank Routing number and so I mean I always Thought that was funny that they it's Like well I remember really for a split

Second there I was I was kind of like Really embarrassed that they caught me I Was like I can't believe this you're the Secret Service anyway I talked to them I You know there's there's really as far As the Secret Service is concerned There's just not much I can tell Them there's you know like it was me Becky's already told them everything Amanda's already told them everything It's not hard to track that when when They raided my house they've got boxes And boxes so it's laid out we still it Took forever like I still went through Everything I explained how I got the Driver's licenses how I made the the Bank statements how I made the birth Certificates how I the whole social Engineering of figuring out how to what These little loopholes are it's it's Like seven days total with these guys so You mean like like question yeah it was Like they question me for all day and Then they take me back to the Marshall's Hold over and then the next morning I Wake up and they chain me up again and Bring me back what's that like what's That process of questioning like are They I mean you're somebody who is Exceptionally good at Conversation charismatic it was part of Uh the games you played uh are they good At Conversation um I mean they're you know

The problem is they're not there to Shoot the you see what I'm saying Like they have a an agenda but they have To use their words to get information Out of you aren't they trying to Manipulate you I'm not I'm not holding Anything back okay I'm not it's not like I'm sparing Jim You know it's trust me Jim's got to go I Mean you're looking at you're like 20 Some odd years but Jim can do five bill Can do some Tom can do six I don't even Like I don't even like uh Jerry Jerry Can do 20 you know so I'm I'm I'm I'm Ready I'm ready to cut everybody's Throat but you're not guaranteed that That you're not you're getting anything For that right in all my time I've seen One one time where an inmate got a a Guarantee to have his sentence reduced And it was signed uh by the head of the FBI was Robert Muller gave it to him to Have a conversation with them that's the Only time I've ever seen that document Okay so a lot of days with both the Secret Service and the FBI so FBI was uh Candice was uh irritated didn't like me And I remember when I uh she un took the Cuffs off I was like rubbing my wrist She goes your wrist hurt and I go yeah And she goes get used to it I mean she Was just an yeah just all around Not that she didn't have a right to be But everybody else was professional you

Know so Uh oh cace so we uh we you know we we we Talked for three or four days with the Uh FBI and you know they asked a ton of Questions they brought a ton of they Brought documents you know so it's like Hey who signed this you know it's like Oh that's not that's not my signature That's so and so signature or I sign That I sign that I signed that that's so And so where'd this check go who is this Oh that's so and so you know You're looking over everything one of The things they wanted to know about was Which I never talked about because it See seems so minor is I bribed a Politician I got him elected because we Got him elected to the uh city council So he could vote to get our our the Lots We bought like a hundred vacant Lots in Eore city and I wanted them all they Were all single family we wanted them Own multif family and so we bribed him And got him elected that doesn't seem Minor it's not as sexy as the rest of The stuff that's pretty I Mean that's a whole another thing like I I mean you know all right so what Happened is when they got all of the Bank accounts they see all these checks Going to Kevin White and so they're like Why did James red donate $500 to Kevin White why did Brandon green donate why Did Allan Duncan donate why did and you

Know so I had explained to oh yeah well He was we wanted him to be city Councilman so we paid you know gave him A bunch of money so he could run the ad So he could get elected so he could then Get all of our stuff but because he Never did you know I took off on the run Before he was able to do that um and and Then he ended up getting uh not long too Too long after that he ended up about Five six years later he ended up getting Uh um indicted for bribery but not mine On somebody else's case can I take a Small tangent here and ask how many Politicians do you think commit crimes Are a little bit or a lot Criminals I mean I think there's some Ways that are you they're they're They're seemingly legal the Forementioned gray area well that's not Gray like I I this guy was like at one Point I couldn't find anybody to write $500 checks anymore so I just gave him Cash like I'm just handing them $7 $8,000 $10,000 in cash So uh but you know I think most of them Have legal ways to make ungodly amounts Of money for you know Influence you know but is it legal no It's they're politicians they've made it So that it's not illegal if you really Sat down and explained it to Someone you Know the average person would say that

That's that's not right that oh no no That's legal so okay so at the end of These few Days um what was the sentencing like Yeah I I end up uh I go to sentencing I I get my PSI back and it's 32 years to Life And yeah and So we argue about it uh with the Prosecutor just before sentencing and They get it down to they 26 years four Months and then Millie says listen don't Worry cuz I'm trying to backpedal at This point I'm like I I might as well go To trial if I lost at trial I couldn't Get more more than 30 that you can't Well more than 32 years cuz you can Can't get life 32 was a Max it's just a Mistake he said 32 years to life you Can't get life so it was like the most I Can get is 32 years so I was like I'll Go to trial might as well go to trial And see if I can get them to reduce some Of these enhancements she insists that She can get the enhancements knocked Down and if you read they actually read The enhancements some of the Enhancements they didn't apply to Me so she goes and and you know I Believed her and and I think she she Made a valid argument we get to we go to Sentencing my mom's there she's crying My dad's there he's looks at he's Looking at me like he's

Disgusted and uh crowd there's a a whole Bunch of reporters like the whole place Is Packed and I'm I plead guilty Millie Gets up my law gets up and she argues uh These enhancements and every single time You know the judge is Like I Disagree you know overruled it's like Boom five more years years you know bam Six more years bam because if she had Won the enhancement she argued I would Have got 14 Years he now keep in mind too prior to This a a month or two prior to this the Pro us attorney had Called Millie and said look dat line Date Line had already come out by the Way remember I was worried about dat Line coming out well it had come out but They wanted to do a followup because it Came out like a month or two after I got Arrested and they were saying hey we Want to recut it with interviews with Him well Gail McKenzie wants that's the US attorney she wants me to do That and she says I'll consider that Substantial assistance now when you Cooperate with the government they Consider it substantial assistance That's what they call it so I cooperate With you it's substantial assistance she Says if he's interviewed by Dateline We'll consider it substantial assistance

And Millie says you have to do it by the Way what's the idea behind that that They like you serve as a warning for Others or something like that yeah Exactly it's a he you know you become a Cautionary tale like don't let this Happen to you so I go and I I'm Interviewed by dayline um I Keith Morris Or whatever his name is you know that Guy Mr schw you know that guy um so He comes and he he he interviews me Becky's interviewed I'm interviewed Amanda's interviewed like uh Allison is Interviewed um like everybody the secret Service agent I think is interviewed Like everybody prosecutors Interviewed uh you know I it's funny at The time I would have I was when I Watched it I was like that's not true And that's not true and that and and the Honest it's like 99% true it's like Looking back on it yeah you know I'm I'm Like you know like my Audi TT wasn't Blue it was silver you know it it's just Stupid but anyway so I'm interviewed by Them and they recut it and they air the Video so I you said this was substantial Assistance and then the other thing is I Was interviewed by the FBI and the Secret Service now my my lawyer calls The prosecutor the night before Sentencing and says look he was Interviewed by Dateline and he he was Interviewed by the Secret Service and

The FBI and if you do that you said you'd Reduce his sentence you'd consider it Stantial assistance and you would reduce His sentence what are you going to ask For his sentence to be tomorrow at Sentencing and she said we did consider It substantial assistance and it's just Not Enough what do you mean nobody was Arrested yes but what about dat Line Millie I I don't know what to tell You it just wasn't enough we considered It we we considered it we will consider It and they did consider it so oh man Yeah that's like the that's you have to Really you know the meaning of words is So important I'm going to use that at Some point I will consider I'll consider It I considered it it's not so and still Feel the same she's so she calls me I'm I'm crushed and she's like but look you Know they're still investigating they're Going to make these arrests and so when You get a sentence reduction at Sentencing it's called a 5k1 when you get a sentence reduction After sentencing it's called a rule 35 So she said we'll file a rule 35 as soon As the arrests are made okay so I go to Sentencing and Millie says you're going To get 14 years I'm going to argue these Enhancements she argues the enhancements She loses the enhancements not that

She's not an amazing attorney she's an Amazing attorney the judge wanted to Hammer me he hammered me you know Millie Was a great attorney she was always Polite to me and by the way to this day We'll answer my phone call most you most Public defenders you call them now you Call them after your sentence they they Don't answer your Call great person thank you Millie I Didn't give her anything to work with You know it's like I'm so overwhelmingly Guilty it's like there's no defense so I End up getting senten 26 Years um it's a lot of years I would Like to tell you that they they when They gave me the time you know that I I Was stoic and I I stood there and I I took it in you know but but the truth Is I cried like a baby like a small Child like you've never seen anyone cry Like this in your life I was Just how did I get 26 how what did I do To get 26 years like murderers rapists I've met guys that kidnapped guys that Got 156 so yeah hey I were you scared I mean you know does a pope wear a funny Hat like of course I was SC Terrified yeah I mean you know but I Kept telling myself ah they're going to Reduce the sentent they'll reduce it They'll reduce it they'll reduce it like Okay okay okay it's going to be okay

It's going to be okay um you know but it Wasn't okay I I I got I got moved to Coleman the Coleman complex in Coleman Florida the Federal correctional Coleman complex in Coleman Florida mhm which is thear Largest complex in the nation uh Federal Complex in the nation there's a there's A at that time there was a a camp which Was a female Camp there was a medium Security a low security prison for men a Medium security prison and two Penitentiaries and so I get moved to the Medium now I'm moved to the medium not Because like that's where like real Criminals go right like I'm I'm a soft White boy like I'm no danger to anybody Like I I Hur I hurt someone's feelings Once but other than that I'm I'm I'm not A pro I'm not going to be a problem but If you have more than 20 years to serve You have to go to a medium so even Though my security level said this guy Should be in a camp MH I had 20 years so If you have you can't go to a camp till You have less than 10 so as soon as I Given 26 years and and you know 26 years They they knock off three but you still Have three years to get below 20 so they Go to the medium so I go to the medium And their guy getting stabbed the very First day people are being Stabbed I get locked into you go to my Cell meet my C they scream lock down

Somebody got stabbed in the wreck yard I Remember I asked that my C which I met 20 minutes earlier I was like what's you Know he's like hey we got to get in the Cell I was like what's going on he Somebody got stabbed in the yard and I Go somebody just got killed and he goes Nah they just stabbed him up a little Bit and I Thought you're in a place where they They stabbed him up a little bit like You're not prepared for this this bro You got to get out of here yeah so Anyway I go to the medium I'm there like What was the first day and night when Remember I already had been locked up in The county and they're they're County Jails where they call them us they're US Marshal they're holdovers but they're Really County jails they just keep you With the with the um Federal guys so I'm Not mixed in with like hobos and you Know people like that like I'm I'm mixed In with the federal people so already Felt like a like a prison yeah it's it's It's a prison I mean it's it's jail but it's prison And andless you've been locked up you Don't really know the difference so it's It's a jail jails suck jails are much Worse the whole time I was locked up in These in the jails waiting to be Sentenced guys were like I just want to Get sentenced and go go to prison bro

Just and I was like why does everybody Keep saying that like prison's worse Than this like I saw shank Shaw Shank It's horrible and they're like bro Prison listen prison I can walk the Wreck yard I could go to the movie room Watch movies I'll listen within right After count for this 4:00 count they Count everybody at 4 so they are like Right after count I'm going to go to Commissary somebody's going to buy me an Ice cream I'm going to be eating an ice Cream walking on the wreck yard the First day like and I'm you know it's Been months and months and months and I've been locked up in this County jail And I'm thinking I want to go to prison Like that sounds nice I'd love I'd like An ice cream yeah but there was a Stabbing on the first day well you know Everybody kept telling me I was going to Go to a camp you're going to go to a Camp you're going to go to a love I see You know and and honestly I I was very Quickly I was walking on the wyard I was You know so I was at the medium I got There you know it's it's a real prison With the doors bam and they can open the Little tray thing and feed you out of The tray and there's a a stainless steel Toilet and sink and you know they have That in the county too but you know it's It's exactly what you think of prison as Being but it feels like a fundamentally

Different experience when it's 26 years And the door locks and yeah so I yeah I Have a S and but I'm also they sent me to a Prison where guys have tons of guys have 30 40 50 years you know life sentences There's there's gangsters there there's Uh there's murderers there's serial Killers there's you know really bad guys Uh there's you know there's guys that Are you know trying to take advantage of Guys right you like sexually yeah um but By the time I got there I'd heard all The you know how you can get yourself in Trouble you know how you can like don't Go in somebody else's cell you don't Know the guy you're not 100% sure do not Go in his cell don't even go near his Cell don't go into places where you People can close a door behind you or They can trap you in an area don't There's all these things that I've been Told not to do again for second sexual Reasons right because I'm I'm a Small guy in prison yeah you know track Away dude yeah it's a problem it's a Problem This yeah it's bad it's all bad well It's good in the outside world but bad In the you know yeah my fear was there Make me shave my head to make sure that The mop wig fits correctly but there's Certain things that I always hate to say This but I and it does this is the

Simplest way to say it is that If you get stabbed in prison you had it Coming you did something they're not Running around just stabbing people you Did something you and the things that Get you hurt is you argue over the TV What channel you want to watch you got 50 80 guys watching One TV don't argue About it like it's none of just not Worth it um borrowing things that and Not returning them that's a problem Running up debts that's a big problem You know Gambling gossiping you know those are The problem those things get you hurt Not being polite be respectful I'm super Respectful so I was Respectful um very quickly when I got to Coleman there are continuing education Courses one of the courses is Residential real Estate the guy that was running the Residential real estate didn't want to Do it anymore because he was doing legal Work and it just was taking too much Time so he came to me he said listen you Just got here you got a real estate Background like nobody else does can you Take over this class and I was like um Sure so I looked at his curriculum I Kind of rewrote a little bit and I Started teaching the residential real Estate class and at one point I was Teaching two classes like a semester or

A Quarter and these guys loved it like Everybody they all think they're going To get out and flip houses so I started You know from the fundamentals I talk About credit how to borrow how hard Money lenders different types of Bor Like everything and you know guys are Walking it's the first time in my life This was funny not that I think I was Really in ever in a position for this to Happen this was really odd though Probably the second or third class when Guys are leaving and I'm having to check Them off the roll multiple guys are Stopping and saying yo bro putting their Hand out and shaking my hand and going Good class was a good class bro then I Have guys coming to me telling me Hey what are you teaching these guys What do you mean they he go my s's Telling me he's going to get out and Make millions I'm Cox's real estate Class I'm telling you I can do this I'm Going to be a millionaire and it's like This flipping houses like this is not Yeah but the truth is if you know it is The flipping houses was what I basically Told these guys especially the drug Dealers right you're a drug dealer and You were raised in the projects and You're going back to the projects like This is this is the One industry or you know that you will

Thrive at because you're a hustler mhm You're you're not afraid a 45-year-old Divorced white woman is not going into The hood knocking on doors to try and Flip houses but you will and you know Everybody in the neighborhood and you'll Knock on those doors and you'll hustle And you'll you've been told no before And you don't care and you're not scared You're not this and there's tons of Money to be made in in lower income Areas and so I I and then when I go Through the whole thing and how you can Leverage uh you know leverage your Credit to borrow money to get into the Property and R do the renovations with Very little money down and I do the Whole thing These guys like they loved it so I was And and what that did for me was two Things one if you got to the class 40 Guys show up before the class and I say Look if you don't want to go you don't Want to be here you just want it because Your your counselor's making you get a Certificate you don't want to be here That's fine bring me two coffees and Like two creamers from commissary and I'll fill out all your Paperwork and you'll pass you'll get a Certificate I don't have to see you Again I have full of coffee and creamer Cuz at least 10 10 or 15 didn't want to Be there the other guys seriously wanted

To be there and I don't want those guys To be there anyway they're going to be a Problem so the other guys are serious About it and and some of these guys sat Through the class two three four Times some of these guys got out and Sent me Money So uh you know which is like a huge sign Of respect you know by the way uh Because they don't owe me anything but I I did that and I taught GED uh because you know you have to do Something for for money And you know I met some some I met a Bunch of cool guys and I was hanging out And I was doing well and after about 3 Years they they transferred me to The low security Prison at this point like the the FBI Starts showing up asking me questions They asked me questions about the Politician I brib you know ask me Questions about him statute limitations Was up and they were trying to tie him Into uh the bank fraud because his name Was Kevin White and one of my guys name Was Michael Kevin White and so they were Trying to tie him in you know did you Did he know about it because if he knew About it statue limitations is 10 years We could no he didn't know um should Have thrown him in there but anyway Because like a couple years later he

Gets indicted he ends up going to jail Anyway and it could have decreased your Sentence yeah listen listen stop stop um Listen oh my God I got all my judgment Out after the the homeless Conversation listen it's only GNA get Worse I mean I I really appreciate your Honesty and your Insight about like About snitching honestly that I have a Sense that that there's A um at least a desire for loyalty in The world I wouldn't that be nice did You ever feel in danger And and and medium more Low it's funny I had more problems at The probably at the low than I did the Medium but at the medium the only thing That happened Was an article came out in the newspaper When I was at the medium it came out and Said because they're you know they're Still investigating things so this Article comes out and I'm on the front Page of the St Petersburg times it was About the politician big article and in The article it says they interview Millie my lawyer and she says well when Mr Cox was being interviewed by the FBI One of the first things they wanted to Know about was this Politician so she just said Mr Cox was Being interviewed by the FBI so I Immediately get taken into custody and They put me in the in the shoe the the

Hole right for my own protection and I'm There for like 40 days and then after 45 Days they're like Cox what do what what Do you want us to do you want us to ship You I was like no put me back on the Compound I'm like half the guys here Cooperated and he goes yeah it's more Than half he said but this is this is The guy from sis which is like their Internal security so that's when he told You that it's actually much higher Percentage he said but he goes but 90 he Said but 100% of them are lying about it He said you just came out in the Newspaper I go man I'm not concerned if You are concerned you got to come Immediately to the Lieutenant's office And tell us we'll ship you I said okay I Get out there people are giving me like The looking at me and what's up you know But I don't have a lot of friends anyway And I come there to make friends and so At one point this one guy comes to me I'm walking in the yard probably two Days later after I get on back on the Compound I'm walking guy comes to me he Has a goatee and he's got a it comes Down here he's got a skull like a little Skull thing he had he had made whittel Out of wood or something and uh you know Definitely looked scary but so I'm Walking and he stopped he goes hey I've never talked to these guys I had Been there for a year or so and never

Talked to any of these guys they're all Like bikers and you know Aryan Brotherhood and so I'm like uh yeah What's up he said Bubba Bubba's their Leader he goes he goes Bubba told me to Tell you uh not to walk the yard he Don't want to see you out in the yard And I went okay I said well I'm going to Walk the yard tonight um I said and if I Get the kicked out of me then I get The kicked out of me did you talk Back to a guy with with a with a wooden Skull hanging off his I did but you know What it was right in front of the guard Shack and so there's guards in the guard Shack you know they're 20 feet away Really you weren't scared I mean I I I Think I just got numb like I'm not Stupid but I'm all I'm walking around I'm you know I was scared from the Moment I got there on if that makes Sense so you get to a point where you're Just numb and you're waiting for it Especially when I got out of the shoe Got out of the shoe I went straight to My cell laid down couple minutes later It was lock lock down they close the Doors I wake up the next morning I go to Cow I go to my job like it starts all Over again so I was I had a very packed Routine so I didn't spend there although There's guys everywhere and I'm I'm Thinking at some point I might just be Walking around a guy might walk up and

Just smash me in the head but it didn't Happen and it's not the guys aren't Getting stabbed but they've got it Coming I didn't tell on anybody here I Didn't do anything it's not that on Other yards I might not have gotten Smashed but I didn't get smashed and I'd Been there a while and I taught the real Estate class and everybody wanted to Take real estate take real estate so I Think that insulated me to a degree uh I Also had U um made a few friends there And I I think they were probably also Kind of putting out the words like bro Cut this guy a break so I'm walking Across and I tell the guy I said look Man I said you know and I wasn't rude to Him he wasn't even rude to me really he Said don't walk to the yard anymore Bubba I didn't want you walk in the yard I said well listen I'm gonna go to cowo And then I'm GNA go out there tonight And walk the yard and if I get smashed I Get smashed I go because I got 26 years And I cannot walk around for the next 26 Years not going on the yard I said so I'm going to be there and if that Happens and that happens and he looked At me and he goes man I don't give a what you do that's what Bubba told Me to tell you he said I told you and he I don't give a what you do and he Walked off I went out there that night With a buddy of mine named Zach um a guy

Named John Gordon uh with my cousin and A couple of his buddies we walked the Track for about an hour Bubba and a Group of his guys stood there and looked At us and as we walked probably closest We got to was 30 or 40 feet that went on For 30 minutes and then they kind of Broke up and went their separate ways And you know there was a couple of times Where I would go to the chow Hall and I would go and I'd be sitting At a table and Bubba would walk up and Tell the other guys at the table I want To let you guys know you're he didn't Even call me a snitch he said you're Sitting with a a cooperating witness he Said he said that's how you want to roll He said you ain't going to be rolling With us if there's any trouble and then They all kind of looked at me and they Got got a got their plate and they moved Off he didn't tell me to move and he Could have walked up and said this is a Snitch he didn't do that Bubba was very respectful um so as Respectful as he could be whatever you Want to say about Bubba he was a Respectful man you ever talk to him Directly never had a conversation with Him so that went on but I mean not when I say that went on I mean like literally Like that's a couple of times he said The same thing to a guy in line one time Guy came up to me later and said look

Man I'm sorry Matt I he was standing Next to me in line Bubba said something To him he went like 10 or 15 people back And stood in line later on he came up to Me man I'm sorry bro but you know blah I Said bro I said look I get it we're not Friends don't worry about it and and Here's the thing at some point there I Got I ended up getting well the FBI Started showing up there at the at the Prison questioning me about my files in At in Tampa the remember the 12 guys That were in indicted they show up and They start asking me about it and so They're still kind of working it well at The same time I end up getting moved to The low security prison I get to low Security Prison they show up over and over again But it's some point they come to me and They say look we went to the US attorney We presented everything we have we have It we I have I have enough for an invest I have enough for to indict all of these Guys I think was whittel down to maybe 8 Instead of 12 and they said look the Entire economy is melting Down at this point these are some of These are four five years Old we don't we we've got banks that are Melting down right now we got we got 100 200 300 million 500 half a billion Dollar banks that we're investigating we Don't have time to deal with this we're

Not going to and we're not going to Indict those people so they get away the Agent I was working with her name was uh Lesley Nelson very nice person uh she Came actually didn't have to do this Came to the uh prison to tell me this is What happen and when she'd first come to See me I told her listen I'm I want to Do all this But no matter what happens I need you to Write me a letter if they don't and and If they don't indict these people I need You to write me a letter that I can Present to the US attorney on my behalf That I I did everything I could and she Goes I'll do that it but that's not Going to happen we're going to get the Indictments everything I was okay so of Course A year later she shows up after Nothing happens and they drop the case She shows up and she tells me what Happened and he's not going to do it I Was I go do you remember that you she Goes I got the letter right now gave me The letter she was like that's it great Letter you know uh it says you know Mr Cox has worked you know blah blah blah He's done this this is great and and Even said you know he deserves a Reduction in my opinion blah blah blah So but there's no there's nobody nobody Was ARR nobody was arrested so I call my Public defender I call Millie I explain It to her and you know she starts you

Know she starts crying and she's sorry And well what are we going to do well There's nothing you can do you're you're Time barred like you have one year to File a 2255 uh which is to say that your lawyer Is ineffective or that the court has Made a mistake in some way MH and it had Been over a year and it it' been years It' been like four years and she's like Yeah I mean you're just there's nothing You can do and she's in tears and um I Kind of feel like I'm done at that point I'm done and what I do is I start Writing a book right I write a memoir my Memoir and and this is not a Shameless Plug for my Memoir by the way which is Amazing just saying but Uh so what happens is I actually I Actually write it you know I write it And then I have to rewrite it right Could I don't really know what I'm doing You know and I'd been reading True Crime And that sort of thing and I've always Liked True Crime I get a literary agent Comes to see me tells me I have to Rewrite some stuff we rewrite it as I'm Finishing up my Memoir there's a guy That comes on the compound and his name Is epim deoli epim Deoli and his business partner uh guy Named David pacau were selling Munitions AK-47 Really tons of Munitions but they got in

Trouble with the this and they were Selling them to the US government for The Afghan Security Forces mhm and there Had been an article in Rolling Stone Magazine about him and I'd read it and Somebody points him out and says hey That's that guy that's and I went up to Him I said hey bro you just got here He's like yeah I said look if you want To write a memoir or anything I'm Finishing my Memoir I can always help You I can help you write an outline you Can get a professional writer whatever If you need help he's like yeah all Right efim Dey was played by Jo Hill in The movie uh wogs mhm so a few months Later he comes to me and says you know Hey they sold the movie rights I was Like oh wow that's great and I'm like You and you don't want to write a memoir And he's like yeah man it was sold to The guys from The Hangover movie and I Was like so the guys from The Hangover Movie are going to make a movie about You I said you understand they're going To call it like Dude where's my hand Grenade and you're going to be thei from Fast time at richmont high like you're Going to be a joke all because you don't Want to write a Memoir and get your your version out There and he was like holy so I end Up writing an outline for him we worked Together and then he asked can I read

Your book I was like sure and I give it To him and he reads it and he comes back And he says bro he this is the best Thing I've ever read in my life and to Be honest I later found out he'd read About three books in his entire life but Still it was very it was very nice you The other two so uh he asked me if I'll Write his book I write his book we work Out a Deal and Uh we do that and I'm I'm I'm saying all This because I basically settle in I'm Done I'm going to do 26 years by the way Just in a small tangent how did you how Did you know you'd be good at writing I'd kind of written a manuscript prior To even taking off on the run I used to Listen to uh John Grisham books you know I would listen to him in the car like I Like John Grisham books and had actually Written a manuscript about a a mortgage Broker U you know he writes about Lawyers it's like lawyer being a lawyer Is not exciting if you can make that Sound exciting I can make being a Mortgage broker uh and I wrote a I wrote A book you know put it in my Desk and uh you know the FBI found it And they' you know said oh it's a Blueprint to the fraud that he's going To commit it wasn't stop it's as much That character was as much me as John Grisham's characters are him but it's

Still kind of interesting that John Grisham didn't right I mean you Know if John Grisham did something Similar to what one of the you know I Saw a quote somewhere That uh the criminal is a is the true Artist and the detective is merely a Critic something like That does that resonate with you or I'll Have to look that up okay so you already Knew you could write well I knew I liked It but yeah I think I got better and Better at it I mean you know as you're Writing and they had creative writing Classes you know in prison at the low uh You know the low was a much Different breed of animal you know like It you know it was you could very easily Get hurt you could get hurt either place But there were guys that have life Sentences that been working out for 20 Years and were just super angry you know At the medium and and if you got hurt at The medium it was probably really go bad Uh as opposed to you get hurt at the low It's more like a a a fist fight in high School so with knives so anyway I so I'm There I'm writing I'm doing that And it there was a guy on the compound That came on the compound about that Same time his name was Frank Amadeo Frank Amadeo is a a Rapid Cycling Bipolar with features of schizophrenia Rapid Cycling bipol with features of

Schizophrenia Rapid Cycling it's just Constant right and so there are moments In in His Manic state where he his Reoccurring psychosis I guess is uh that He believes and since he was in his Early teens has believed that he is Pre-ordained by God to be emperor of the World he's a lawyer despar stole close To $200 million from the federal Government they gave him 22 years and They sent him to Coleman but it doesn't this is the part I love the delusions don't affect his Legal work MH it doesn't say a ton for Legal Community but how do you know he's Delusional I'm just asking questions Yeah he's he's trust me I I I mean it's It's not me it's like the transcripts The lawyers the doctors the you know Yeah there's a ton of a ton and then if You saw him in action you'd be like oh Wow yeah you know he'd be he would be Completely normal he would be having a Completely normal conversation And somebody would say something and he Was he'd go that makes me so angry I I I I can't I'm not going to let them do That when my Legions March on Washington we are going to burn the Constitution and the president will Kneel at my Feet and he Goes I'm going to need your transcripts I'm going to need a 2255 for form we're

Going to file up you and it would just Like and everybody would sit there and Be like okay Frank I'll get this and I'll get it was insane it was the most Insane he was basically running a Medium-sized Law Firm from inside of the Prison he was training people he taught The he taught the um the legal research Class and was training people on how to Do legal research in prison how to put Together motions how to fight uh fight Their cases how to do the research how To type them up everything he's teaching He's teaching a law it's like a law School right like he's teaching these Guys he he listen they made such a Mistake locking this guy up so he's a Great lawyer listen it's going to get Worse it's going to get worse because Here's what happens is at this point I Don't talk to him for probably a year or So because everybody's saying he's crazy You know and he's and for like a year he Gets there he's drooling out of the side Of his mouth they got him on a ton of Medication it takes him about a year to Get them to take him off the medication So he he gets them to take him off off The medication and then he starts kind Of stabilizing his mood by drinking Pepsi uh I know BR it's CRA I know it's Crazy I know how I see I see you looking At me like this guy's delusion I know it Works whatever works so at some point

One of my buddies comes to me and says Look you got to go talk to Frank well Here's the other thing over the course Of a year or two that he's starts doing Legal work for guys he starts just Taking on guys cases I'll do the motion I'll do your legal work I'll do this Keeps them busy but suddenly you start Hearing people get Released you know you know Jimmy just Got 10 years knocked off his sentence He's going to halfway house next month You know Tom got an immediate release Frank's walking people up to R&D shaking Their hands guys are walking up to him In tears crying and and so you know Crazy or Not what what choice do I have I I Called three different lawyers on the Street and said this is is what happened What can I do what can I do they they Had me they told me to do this and this And this and I worked with them and then They decided not to proceed and what can I do and they said you're hit bro There's nothing you can do you cannot in The middle in the in the 11th circuit You cannot force them to file a Reduction on your behalf you cannot do It it's impossible you're hit you're Done it's over I love to take your your Money Mr Cox but it's not going to Happen I I can't I'm I'm just going to Take your money you're going to lose

Three different lawyers I talked to I or TI's lawyer told me bro it's not gonna Happen it's over So my buddy says go talk to Frank I said Him well why why wouldn't I I got Nothing else to lose so I go talk to Frank he actually has a little manic Moment that little thing that I just Showed you that's exactly what he said The first time I talked to him based on Your case yes I won't let this happen He's like I'm going to need your Transcripts I'm going to need to get This I need to see your indictment I'm Going to need your preator report I'm Going to need he like okay and I turned To my buddy he's like bro I know I know What you're thinking it's fine it's crazy and he's like he's like I Understand let just what what choice do You have I was like so Frank files A 2255 motion on my behalf stating that I'm not time barred that Millie Was we fil it against Millie stating That she was ineffective mhm right that She didn't understand the law She had me plead to something cuz she Thought I could get a reduction simply For doing dat line oh by the way when I Was in the medium the government came to Me and asked me to be interviewed by American Greed I do that I'm interviewed You know they they they get me on the Phone they talk to me everything my the

Prosecutor wants me to do it she's Reined everybody's reined it airs Millie Goes to them to the government says look Reduce the sence they go no Millie it's Not enough then they come to me and they Ask me to write an an ethics fraud Course I write an ethics and fraud Course the guy I write the course with He they flies up to um Atlanta he talks With I think he drove up but he goes up To Atlanta he talks with the US attorney Talks to Millie she insists if he does This I will reduce his sentence I will Definitely consider this definitely Consider yeah definitely consider and Then we do it it's being used all over The Nation not enough consider that's where At this point I go to Frank I tell Frank What's happening Frank says yeah this is He was every time they asked you to do Something it reset the time bar you have A year from that time to file 2255 now He insists that that was a viable Argument nobody else does but he said I'm not going to let them do this I'm Going to take care of this I'm gonna get Your sentence reduced Okay uh Emperor okay Emperor So he is a character uh anyway he so he Files a 2250 5 the government comes back they say He's time barred Frank comes back he he

You know they answer his motion he files A retort uh they file you know it just Goes back and this goes for six months To a year and at some point I go to mail Call and you know they call my name and They they hand me this thing and I open It up and it says the government's filed A motion for a stay so that they Can they want the court to appoint me a Lawyer and to discuss filing a rule 35 Reducing my sentence and I you know I Like I read it but I couldn't even Understand like I don't understand so I Mean I rushed to go find Frank I show it To Frank and he says he says yeah They're staying it they're going to send You a lawyer and you're going to Negotiate for how much they're going to Reduce your sentence he said it's Perfect so they fly this woman down her Name is Esther panic She flies down we comes to the Visitation room they bring me there the Lawyer's room whatever they call it the And so we're sitting there and I Remember we're talking and she says uh Listen your your motion your 2255 is Written well but honestly you don't have Much of a prayer and um they're offering You a one level Reduction which is 30 months and I Went oh that's that's not enough and she Said well I don't know what to tell you Um she said they're willing to bring you

Back and I was like well you know I mean I don't know I got to talk to Frank Frank said I deserve this many levels And know we're going back forth she she Go who's Frank and I go Frank's the guy That's doing all my legal work she goes He didn't write all this and I was like No she goes who wrote and I I explain it To her and she's like he's an inmate and I was like yeah and and she goes why is He here and I tell her well cuz he's he Stole a bunch of money from the federal Government cuz he's trying to take over The world so I tell her that whole thing And she's like you you're letting A a a mentally Incompetent you know person do your Legal work I was like yeah because all The competent attorneys wouldn't do it They said I didn't have a prayer your People said I didn't have a prayer and I Said Frank said he was going to he could Get this done and she's like well I Mean you know you don't like I don't Even know why they're offering you one Level I was like well Frank said you Know and I'm like Frank this Frank that And so she I end up saying she's like You're taking it advice from a a legally An incompetent person I said Yeah and she said you know you really Don't have a prayer I said then why are You here I said if they could crush me So easily why are you

Here I said they're giving me one level Let me talk to Frank I'll let you know What we're going to do so I leave I call Her a couple days later I tell her Frank And I talk to Frank Frank said go back Go back and argue for more he said I Think the judge is going to give you More he's going to give you at least you Know between whatever he said like six Or seven s levers or something so I get I get moved all the way back to Atlanta the FBI agent comes to talk on My behalf the guy that like multiple People show up to talk on my behalf they Say you know Millie who I filed the 2255 Against so I'm basically saying you're You're ineffective you're incompetent You know but she knows the game she's Like I get it she she gets on the stand And testifies for me so so the judge Goes H you know listen I think we were Asking for like nine levels or something Outrageous prosecutor starts arguing for One Level and he said listen one level is Not nearly enough for what Mr Cox has Done he said Mr Cox I know you're Arguing for nine uh nine levels off your Sen he goes that was never going to Happen was like feel like I got slapped And he said so I'm I'm going to go with Six levels no no I'm sorry he said three Levels I'm going to go with three levels He which is uh which is seven years

Which she said for somebody who has no Arrest associated with his case he said I think it's pretty good and that's what That's his judgment and blah blah blah Blah blah and he Hammer put puts the Gavel down and walks off that's it it's Over I got seven years I was hoping for More so I get moved back to Coleman I Get moved back to Coleman and I go to up To Frank and I said Frank I got I got Seven years off and he's like I know I Know I said I I don't mean to sound Unappreciative I said I Just said I was hoping for more he goes I was too he said it looks like we're Going to have to eat this elephant one Spoonful at a time and he goes something Will come out something's going to Happen he said keep your ears open Something will happen and I said okay And you know I Honestly by that point I'd done you know I'd done eight years And I remember like if I got a year off For the drug program program and good Time and this and I had about eight or Eight years left to go or something nine Years left and I was like you know I can Do that all right you know I'd been Writing Um by that point I'd i' actually written A Story like I got a book deal for Deoli you know um and I ended Up uh writing a synopsis of a guy's

Story and I got him in Rolling Stone Magazine and I got a book deal for that Like I got an advance it's like 3,500 Bucks for being in prison a prisoner to Get $3,500 Advance like I'm a Millionaire there a lot of money so and Then we optioned the film rights Basically the synopsis that I wrote for This reporter journalist for Rolling Stone he goes to Rolling Stone with my With what I wrote and gives it to them And they okay it they say yeah this is Great we want you to write an article Based on this okay okay he writes the Article he tells Me that the article will be from him his Name g Lawson Douglas Dodd which is the Name of the kid I wrote the Memoir about And Matthew Cox couple of weeks before it's going The article is going to be published he Tells me rolling stone doesn't want my Name on the article because I'm in Federal prison and it doesn't look good But don't worry he going to put my name In the article and that's just as good Um and I argue it's not just as good It's not I'm like I would be I would be A writer for Rolling Stone magazine like You understand I'm trying to I'm trying To come up with something here that I Can rebuild my life as a true crime Writer that's no Good what and that wasn't so bad that

Wasn't the worst of the worst of it was 90% of the article that he published was Taken directly from what I sent him like I mean sick to my stomach bro just sick Over it so but they option they option The life rights for that and I got a Piece of that so there's like $7,000 I Get a check for that so I'm I'm thrilled I can keep writing because you have to Understand writing on the computer there They charge you so I start write oh they Charge you for phone calls writing Comment every single thing cost money so I start writing all these guys stories I Start writing Books I just come back from went back to Atlanta got re got s seven years knocked Off my sentence come Back and I'm walking around the Compound now there was a guy that was There named Ron Wilson Ron Wilson Ran in if you look in the newspaper it Says it's like a a hundred million Ponzi Scheme but really was $57 million so he Had lost 57 million so it says 100 you Know they you know they always EX Exaggerate cuz 57 is not enough Ron Ended up getting 19 and a half years Ron Was an old con man Mhm early 60s 62 61 I don't know and uh Ron I and I liked Ron Um so we're walking around the compound And he's like so what are you going to

Do I me like eight or nine more years to Go and I was like H you know I'm going To keep writing and when I get out of Here maybe I'll have a huge body of work And maybe I'll be able to sell it or Maybe I'll be able to option some more Stuff and if I could get together with Rolling stone or get with some of these Magazines I could start writing for them And I could option those maybe I could Walk out of here with something so right Right right so Ron was who only been Locked up like a year or so he was Cooperating with the Secret Service in His case against some of his Codefendants so he's he's already been Debriefed and he's cooperating he's Actually thinking he might get brought Back to have to testify a Trial we're talking and we're walking And he keeps saying you know even if I Even if they they charge those guys and Even if this happens they're not going To reduce my sentence they're not going To cut my Sentence you know first of all well Probably because you stole a bunch of Money from Pension funds and churches That didn't help your case but I don't Say that uh so I I say oh they have to Bro they'll have to they they you know If you cooperate they're going to have To and if they don't we'll have Frank Follow 2250 five and he's like uh ah

That crazy mother um so he says uh okay He's like yeah yeah you don't understand You don't understand so this goes on for Months and I and I'm like what is the Problem and he says you know they think I hid Ponzi scheme Money you know and he'd actually dug up Like five or six million dollars in Ponzi scheme proceeds that he dug he he He buried in these oh literally Literally buried in aluminum Amun Munition canisters mhm super interesting Guy so he actually went and dug them up And gave them to him and I'm like well You gave them all the money it's you Didn't hide anything relax it's not a Big deal they're not going to find Anything so don't worry about it and so He mentions it a couple weeks later Couple weeks later and then one day I go Bro why do you keep bringing this Up like what are you concerned about They it's not going to happen and he Said can I trust you and I went probably Not and he Goes I did hide some money I was like Okay I said you you bury in a can Somewhere and he's like no he I I um Gave my wife like 150,000 in cash I said Okay well she's not going to say Anything she's using no you don't Understand since then she found out I Was having an Affair and we're going to get a divorce

And she hates me and I think she'll turn That money in just to make make sure That I don't get a Reduction cuz if you lie to the FBI They're not going to doesn't matter what You've done for them they won't give you Anything and so he's BL I mean I'm sorry Secret Service or anybody he is clearly Lied to the secret service at this point If she goes and says this is what he Gave me MH so he's like I was like oh Wow and he's like and I gave my my Brother's holding maybe 30,000 for Me And at that moment I was like wow like This poor guy no that's not what I Thought at all what I thought was is That enough to get me a sentence Reduction you said him a and I went and I sat there and you Know what I thought I thought I I I I Thought no I thought that's not enough That's not enough it's nothing that's Not even $200,000 like and they didn't want to Give me a reduction my prosecutor was Pissed that I got seven years off she Wanted me to get 30 months she's not Going to give me anything it's up to her She's not going to do it so I go I lay Down I go to bed like a month later I'm On the phone with my lawyer cuz I had Written remember I wrote a man my I had A manuscript for my book and I wanted to

Put some of the stuff that was said at My in my sentencing in the Book so I was trying to get my lawyer to Mail me my transcripts and she hadn't Done it so I called her and I said Listen you said you were going to she's Like oh God man I'm so sorry I'm so busy I'll do it I'll do it and then she went This is Esther she go so what else is Going on in there and I this she never Wanted to talk to me like she didn't you Know when they were paying her she Didn't want to talk to me and and I was Like what do you mean nothing I just Need my transcription she was like Nothing's happening there's nothing you Want to talk about I was Like and I went you know What you know what there's something Weird happened there listen to this and I told her about Ron Wilson and she goes Hold on and she looks up on the computer She goes oh wow this is a bad guy this Is a bad Guy and he told you then you know where It is absolutely she and I can tell you Exactly and she goes okay okay okay she Goes uh let me look into this I go okay So a week later a a CO comes to me and Goes hey Cox and I go what's up he goes Listen at the next move because you know They have controlled moves all the doors Are locked and they open them up for 10 Minutes so you can run to the chow hall

Or you can run to the you can't run Though there no running on the compound But you can walk fast yes to the wck Yard Uh or the library whatever he says at The next move go to Sis you know so I go to Sis on the next Move but I was used to going there by The way because I I was constantly Ordering Freedom of Information acts and They would so I'd order your your an Inmate and I'd order I'm writing a story For you and I'd order it and they'd send It to me and then they would catch it And they'd be like why are you getting Lex's information so they'd call me down There I go no I ordered it for him and I'm writing a story and I'd already been In Rolling Stone everything they're like What's the story and I tell them the Story they that's a pretty good story Here and so I go down there but this is Different this the guy answers the door And his guy they call him Bulldog he was A real uh he was a lieutenant of Sis and he's like uh come in get in here Cox sit down and he dials the phone he Goes here you got to talk to this guy And I'm like what I pick up the phone I'm like hello and the guy goes hey this Is Agent Griffin with the Secret Service I understand you know where Ron Wilson Is has uh hidden Ponzi scheme money I Who whoa whoa whoa I want something

Writing I want you know so I start doing That and they go okay I get his his Email address and we start emailing each Other back and forth and he ends up S Getting a letter from the US attorney in South Carolina that says they will Consider it substantial assistance if They if they make arrests or recover a Substantial amount of money MH that's The best I'm going to get is consider so I start talking to thisy guy and he Starts asking me questions about Ron Wilson like hey ask him this ask him This so I'm like bro I got to kind of Work that into a conversation that's an Odd thing to ask this goes on for six Months so I'm asking questions and I'm Typing up little reports and I'm I'm a I'm a I'm a prison snitch now so I'm not Just like cooperating I'm now I'm a Prison snitch so I've I've moved down I've moved down actually from being just A cooperating witness or because you're In prison is that what makes you a Prison you can't even say um you could Say prison rat you could say prison rat I think prison snitch I think that's Probably the closer to the term that Most guys would use what's the Difference between a snitch and a rat in Prison I'm not sure I it rolls off the Tongue better prison rat doesn't sound As good as prison snitch I don't know I Don't spend a lot of time thinking about

This so what happens is um I'm asking Wilson questions periodically and it Some point they contact me and they say Listen Wilson's about to get some bad News and I go Okay um and they go he's you know like I Would want to tell you what it is let us Know what happens it's like two days go By and one day Wilson comes up to me one Day and says and I'm like oh I'm like hey what's up you know and He's like oh my you're not going to Believe this I got indicted I was like What what what Happened no yeah my wife they questioned My wife and my brother and my brother my Wife walked in first she said I don't Have nothing I don't know what you're Talking about the next day the brother Walks in and gives them $150,000 in cash and so the next day the Wife comes back and gives them $250,000 In cash and a bunch of uh silver like Gold bullion and silver you know because This he was a his his Ponzi scheme was Based off of Silver you know he was going to invest In silver for you so half a million Dollars they turn over half aill I'm Like half a million dollars I thought She was like a 100,000 or something and He was he was like I know I didn't know I could trust you I'm like Ron what are you doing I thought we were

So he um so I'll tell you something just For the icing on the cake by the way the Icing on the cake let me explain one More thing y there's so if you're going To if somebody cooperates with the Federal government let's say I get Arrested and they go you want to help Yourself and you go yeah okay um look uh Jimmy is a he lives next to me and he's Running a meth house you know a meth lab Whatever and they go and they raid Jimmy And he gets arrested you're going to get Something off for that not a lot but You're going to get Something Now and they could just say we were Going to bust him anyway way we were Already on to him right now the next Level would be you wear a Wire so I wore a wire and I I was in Danger now keep in mind I'm asking this Guy questions inside federal prison I'm In danger so whatever that's like the Next level you're active you're taking Active participate participation in the Um investigation and the third level Would be you actually get on the Stand and you cooperate you you testify That there's no better cooperation than That So when Wilson says to Me they're going to move me back to South Carolina they've indicted me they Charged me what do you think I should do

And I go I think you should go to Trial because I know they'll have to Call me as a witness yeah just to let You know because I don't I don't want You to I don't want to walk out of here And have you feeling feeling like hey There's some there's some good to this Guy no so I'm ready I'm I'm ready to cut Wilson like a fish so yeah but you are Putting yourself in danger if you get Understand right I'm already in danger If if people there heard what I was Doing I probably would have been in Doesn't that increase the chance of them Hearing or no if you it does but it also Increases my ability to get more off my Sentence sure so what happens is couple Days later he's on What's called the Pack out right they're GNA move him Maybe a week later so they come and get Him they move him he gets back there to South Carolina and he pleads guilty he He they sentence him he gets six months Added on so he's now from 19 and a half To 20 Years uh and and by the way when Co hit He was released so he only ended up Doing like six years on a 20-year Sentence because he was older he's by That point he's 66 67 years old you know He's an old any anybody older than 55 Was endangered especially in the prison So they had a a CO thing where they were Releasing these guys and sending them

Home on ankle monitors like he's an old Man he's not he he's not going to hurt He's not he's not a Danger so they sent him home so he ended Up doing so he didn't even serve the six Months he even served the original Sentence whatever not that I care so I'm Just saying makes you feel like poor Ron It's okay so his wife got like a hundred Year 100 she got like a hundred hours of Community service or something or 60 Hours and I think his brother got 6 Months papers they they got charged with Um obstruction of justice you know and They didn't neither one of them you know It's like six Months probation and community service Nothing so when we I turn around I'm Waiting for my reduction waiting waiting After about 90 days after this guy gets Sentenced maybe 6 months I send a letter Hey what's going on to the prosecuting To my prosecutor their the prosecutor Both districts no response then I go to Frank I explain to Frank and Frank has Known what's going on the whole time and Frank goes uh okay I'm going to file a 2255 so we file a 2255 government comes back and they First thing they say is your honor we Don't know about any cooperation we've Never heard about any cooperation so of Course then we submit the letter that we Have the judge comes back and the judge

Ends up saying it's a little complicated But he ends up saying look I don't have Jurisdiction to hear this Because you're you may be time Barred but I'm going to let the the Appeals court hear it now typically you Have to you have to get what's called Like a right of cert a certification to Appeal you have to make sure that you Actually have a case he says I'm waving The CT and I'm waving the $500 fee to file With them He said and I'm he's he basically Expedites it for me which is a subtle Way of telling the prosecutor I think He's got something and I'm sending it up There and he and the way he writes his Motion it's basically saying I don't Have the jurisdiction to hear to do Anything but they do they need to do it And I'm Paving the way you don't have to Pay any money and you don't need that Sir so the prosecution immediately comes Back they file a a a on level Reduction and we immediately Frank files Something saying hey stop we don't want The reduction we don't want the one Level we want to come back to court Please don't don't rule on it so the Judge says okay I'm freezing everything I'm I'm putting a stay on everything I'm Going to give this guy a Lawyer to try and figure out what you're

Going to do they fly down a lawyer Leanne well So she comes and and she comes and sees Me and uh she says listen I I I see that You want to go back and fight this and This but honestly I don't think you're Going to get anything more than one Level uh I talked to the prosecution They said they'll give you well she said I can work on trying to get you two Levels but you don't have much of a Prayer you're going to get crushed and I Said well then then why are you here if They can crush me so easy why don't they Do it why would they pay you like they Pay them like 12 Grand or something just To fly down and all your expenses to to Negotiate for me why not crush Me and she's like I I don't know I said Well Frank said four levels and she's Like who's Frank I go Frank's the guy That wrote All This and she's like oh is Is he an attorney and I go is he in here I'm like yeah he's in here she's like Why is he in here and I tell her he was Taking over the world yeah and she Says that's the strangest thing I've Ever heard in my entire life and I said I understand but Frank said and she's Like you're listening to an incompetent You know I'm like Absolutely and she and Frank said four Level we want four levels she he said For me to tell you we want four levels

She Sayes okay she leaves she goes to The US attorney we argue two levels they Come back say two levels no we go back And forth we start filing motion saying We want to go back we want a hearing we Want to bring back all the FBI agents The Secret Service agents so and she's Like what do you want to turn this into A circus exactly what do I want to do I Going to turn it into the biggest circus Cuz I've already got one level MH they Come back one day she says Listen three levels is the best you're Going to Get she said so uh I guess you'll be Moved back here we'll go to the hearing I said no no no I'll take three levels And she go what are you talking she said You said four levels you said Frank Wouldn't take let you take anything less Than four I said no Frank said to tell You four I was happy with three I wanted You to argue for four I'm good with Three I'm out of here in like a year Yeah so and I don't want to be moved Back I don't have to get on that bust You know what it's like to be moved it's Horrible so I said I just want the three Levels so then we argue about the Wording for about two three months and Then they file it and then I get five Years knocked off my sentence because Three levels at this at the level I was At now isn't seven years every level you

Get a little less time so I get five Years off so now I've got 12 years Knocked off my sentence at this point I maybe have a year and a half to go mhm And you know that's Doable so I was super super Happy um and I'm gonna I'm going to tell You Something uh and I'm sorry bro um but Every time I think about it and I I just Feel like I have to say It Like I'm Frank I'm insane But I can like I didn't have a Prayer without that guy and as crazy as He is and much of a pain in the ass as He Was um like I could never repay him bro Like like I'm not I shouldn't be here I'm supposed to be in prison right now My outdate was 30 was 2030 without that guy where no he got Himself out he didn't do all that time He got himself out I don't even know how He did it they even threw him back in Prison again for six months and he got Himself out again uh he's insane he's Incredible he's insane but he's Incredible is he really that insane he's In Orlando is he I mean he seems like he Seems like a good lawyer and a good man He he's he's he's great he's great I Mean there's no doubt in my mind I would

Be in prison right now if it wasn't for Him and he's done this for others walk People right out 10 years off 5 years Off 9 years off 10 years I mean it's I Didn't pay and I didn't pay for one Thing I didn't pay for my stamps he paid For Everything sounds like the other lawyers Don't really believe it's possible and He does it's interesting well I think He's he was willing to he's willing to Badger them into doing you know what They should have done to begin with I Actually wrote a book about it which he Loved about him about him and his story His it's so overthe toop what happened With him um I mean l it tried to take Over the Congo I mean there's a a Documentary about it there's it's called Nine days in the Congo it's an insane Story I'm I'm that's one of those Stories it's just like how is this not a Movie it's not a movie yet no I don't I've pitched it several times and uh It'd be it would be great but so I wrote A son is and I turned that into a book What's the name of the book oh it's Insanity it's Insanity yeah but about it Like a year and a half later like I Ended up getting out of prison and I Went to the halfway house what' that Feel like Freedom it was Uh oh this is bad bro this is bad I I remember when I was leaving the prison

So you know I met some great guys in Prison which is a weird thing to say but I've met met better I met better people In prison than I'd ever met outside Prison at that Low Um I mean because it was the first time I actually had friends you know like I I I really had someone that wanted to hang Out with me just like I didn't I didn't Have anything to offer them I can't make You any money I can't do anything for You we just hanging out because we like To laugh or we have things in common or We're fascinated by each other where we Just have good time and fun so when I Was leaving I remember my mom showed up And my brother showed up and they picked Me up and we were driving Off and I remember looking back at the Prison and my brother said pa I'm glad I'll bet you're glad to see that you Know uh to leave that behind you and and I started crying and like nobody talked I was so uncomfortable uh and was I Started crying and and it was wasn't Because I was like oh it's over it was Because it was like Survivor guilt you Know like I was leaving all of my Friends and I felt so bad that I was Leaving Them uh but I I went to the I went to The halfway house and uh I Had I had

Four I had so when I was getting out I Remember joking that I had exhausted my TR links account my my my inmate account I had exhausted it I had nothing I had Like 18 cents I couldn't even figure out How to spend it and they give you a Debit card when you Leave and I said like and they charge You every time you you s you use the Card like I don't even have enough to Spend the 18 cents you know because the Charge is like $3 so I was like I was Like yeah yeah I was like I wonder if They'll still give me my debit card and I'm laughing everybody's like what are You going to eat what do you this what That and Uh and my one buddy looked at me he was Like you can't go to the halfway house With nothing bro and I was like no it's Cool I said no it's cool you know I said No it's cool I said I want to start at The bottom I've got that coming I got Working at McDonald's coming so I'm Gonna work at McDonald's I don't give a and he was Like well I think he I I think you're Going to need to buy clothes I think I Said oh it's I said it's it's the um It's it's at the Goodwill they'll give You a bunch of they give you a bunch of Crap if you don't have anything if You're Indigent and I said I'm Indigent And a couple days

Before I'm leaving $400 ends up on my Account and I was like what the and It was from a buddy of mine and I go to Him my buddy uh Tommy and I was like Tom Me I go did you put $400 on my account And he said I can't let you go for with Nothing bro So I get to the halfway house and I go To Walmart and I buy $300 worth of Clothes at Walmart I've never been in a Walmart I go to Super Walmart you're Huge and I go there and I buy a bunch of Clothes and I buy about 300 bucks worth The clothes and I still have some of the Blue jeans to this day I still wear some Of the blue Jeans And I stayed in the halfway house and I I called the Buddy of M mine named Tron Uh Trion calleda and he owns a gym and You know I grew up with him his whole Family like they own a bunch of gyms and I I called him and I said hey man I'm in The halfway house and he was like hey What's going on he said can I do Anything for you and I was like I mean I Need a job I didn't think he was going To give me a job he was bro you're hired I'll give you a job he said I can Minimum wage I said that that's fine if I can stay out of here I you can work Like 880 hours a week I was like if I Can just stay out of here 80 hours and You pay me minimum wage he go oh hell

Yeah perfect so I'm at the gym and uh I Got free reign so I'm playing on my Computer goofing off all day and my Buddy Pete who's still locked up he's Texting me and calling me and he's like Not texting me he's emailing me through The cor link system and and he's calls Me periodically he's like have you Started a a website because one of the Things I was going to do when I got out Was I was going to start a website with All these stories that i' written and I Was like no Pete I I don't I I can't Like I don't I have a computer he's like Well how much is a computer I was like I Don't know they're like 300 bucks I was Like I don't I I said I could probably Get a used Apple like MacBook like a 5-year-old MacBook or something I don't Know for like three $350 whatever and I Said but he's like okay so that's all You need 300 bucks no no no no no I said It's not 300 bucks bro it's 300 bucks Plus it's getting a a WordPress website Which I said costs money plus it's Hiring somebody to help me figure it out Because I don't I I'm I'm Napped I don't know how anything works So he okay and I said plus I need this Plus I need this I I got a bunch of Stuff I need $600 for this I need 300 For this I need $500 for this I need $1,000 for for this and he goes okay he Said I'm gonna I'll get you okay I got

It so he reads off a list he goes I got You but Pete doesn't have any money and I go how are you going to give me any Money he goes he Goes every day I walk across the Compound some people stop me and say How's Cox doing and I say oh he's okay And they say does he need Anything and I say no no he's good he Said I'm gonna start telling these yeah yeah he needs something you Want to do something for him here's what He Needs I ended up getting two laptops Sent to Me I got the computer Program um Final Cut Pro I had uh I had Guys in Prison cutting me checks so that I could Build a website and put all these Stories on the website so I start Putting the website I don't know what I'm doing man I I put them on the Website slowly it takes forever um I'm Putting pictures up I'm I'm trying to Figure out how you know Photoshop Works How all this stuff right the whole time I was I wanted to start cuz everybody The last when I was just getting out of Prison everybody kept telling me like Bro you you got to start a podcast you Got to start a true crime podcast and I Don't know what a podcast is the term Podcast came into existence in 2009 when

I'd been locked up three years I'd never Been on YouTube yeah so by the time I Get Out the last year or two guys are coming Up to me giving me magazines like this Is what a pod you need to read look True Crime is huge and you have to think guys Are asking me every couple of days Cox You got any stories and I'm like hey Yeah uh did you read cash and Coke and They're like uh is that the one where The guys are robbing the drug dealer Yeah oh no I read that one uh did you Read this one no no no I haven't read That that's the one with the guy and I'm Like yeah yeah yeah yeah so I I so I'm Giving these little stories and then Theyd come back and give them to me you Know it's you don't have you don't have Anything in there right so this is guys That would never read in their life are Reading MH and I'm writing about the guy In in B2 the guy in C1h So I put up the whole thing and and There well anyway they're all telling me Do a true crime podcast True Crime Podcast I don't really know what that is But by now I'm starting to listen to Them on YouTube you know uh Cal and uh Uh Cold Case Files you know that kind of Stuff and I think that's what I want to Do well my buddy Trion says there's a Guy named Danny

Jones that runs a podcast called Concrete and it's in St Petersburg and He lives a couple miles from me I see Him all the time and I went okay and he Said you should you should email him He's got a guy on there all the time That does real estate and I go I just Got out of prison for for bank fraud Related to real estate he doesn't want To interview me he goes well you could Maybe he does maybe you could ask him About starting a Podcast okay so I sent him an an email I Remember Danny called me and he said hey Is this Matt C I was like yeah this is Matt he I got your email this is Danny Jones and I was like Okay and he says uh he saids yeah I got Your email bro he that's a good Email I was like what he goes I get a Lot of emails bro he said that's a good One that a good one he that was really Good like I mean that was well written He's like like I immediately knew I had To talk to you and I said oh okay I said Uh because you know I start off with I Think I started off with hey my name is Matt Cox and I'm a con Man was recently released from federal Prison and so he was like oh yeah I mean Who who says that so anyway he said uh What's going on I said well and I tell Him what's going on I want to start a Podcast blah blah blah and you know

Danny he listens to me for 30 minutes to An hour and I've heard this and this and He's like yeah well he's you know YouTube's not really like that and That's not really how we do it and you Know I don't know that you're you're Going to have to get a production Company and blah blah blah he goes but You know what what you really need to do Is to see if people are even interested In you or your story or you're able to Talk you should come on my show you know Shameless yeah trying to get some Content well I mean so as I told you Offline the Danny and concrete podcast Is really good so people should Definitely listen to it yeah yeah I mean It turns out people do like listening to You turns out I mean you're good at at Telling stories well any I by the time I Got I couldn't do Danny's podast like I Can't do it bro I'm in the halfway house So maybe I get out of the halfway house And a couple months go by just maybe two Months three months go by and one day I Get a phone call from Danny he's like Bro you're out of the halfway house Right and I was like cuz I told him I Got out in July I was like October November I'm like right he's like listen I had a guest fall through I got nobody I need you to come on I answered all Your questions you know I'd call them Five six times you know I you said and I

Was like a I was like I'll it I'll Do it that video got like a two million Views then I did Patrick Bet David flew Me out you know then I did soft white Underbelly you know then I did Vlad then I did all like people started and I'm Sorry and then you know it just blew up And then people started asking me to Come and you know talk for no reason for Which was crazy but you were saying I'm Sorry is your jzz still with us no he Died uh when I was in Prison he came to see me uh yeah he came To see me two or three times when is the First time he found out that you were Doing fraud the first time I got in Trouble when you got the pro because I Had you know I had to kind of Explain that you you know like Something's happening I didn't want him To hear from anybody else so you so you Talk to him directly about It super Disappointed did he ever tell you he Loves you after that so I after I got The 26 years and the government decided They weren't going to Indi Anybody and I really was like wow this Is it like you're done he came to see me But just by himself and I remember He I remember when he came to see Me I you know he was by it was by Himself like he never came by himself so I remember

Thinking my mom something happened to my Mom and I like as soon as I walked in You know he walked in like what I go Where's mom and he goes oh no she's fine She's fine and he sat down with me and He said Uh and I he said uh how how are you Doing I was like I'm good and he was Just Like you know he was getting sick he was Getting Older so you know we talked for a little Bit uh just about the situation and I Was like yeah he's like what are you Going to do and I was like you know There's nothing I can do like everybody I've called multiple attorneys I've Talked to people there's nothing I can Do and he was like um you know we you're Going to figure it out you know he Goes Um he said you're Clever and you're smart and you're going To you're not going to do all of that Time and I was like I'm Done it's Over I'm going to get out of here when I'm 60 if I behave myself and if I don't I'll be 64 and he was like that's not going to Happen and Uh so he said uh I think that was the First time he you know I knew he was Proud of me when I was making money but

He never said it you know you got the Look like he was like Impressed but we were sitting There and he said I remember he said Because it's the only time I can ever Remember him saying he was proud of me And I remember he said you're going to Figure this out he said I'm not proud of Where you ended Up but you've done amazing things you Know I wish you'd use your talents for Something different but you've done Things that I could have never done and You've LED an amazing adventurous life And I'm proud of You and that you know I wish he could See you No my mom uh I my Mom saw me my mom's Funny cuz my mom came to see me my mom's A gangster MH my mom came to see me every two weeks For 13 years she missed about a month And a half when she had a Stroke and ended up in a wheelchair and Then she came in the wheelchair and she Would make my brother bring bring her my Brother and sister would be like Mom are You sure you want to go like you know it It's it's so hard to it's such a long Drive and you get so tired well I'll Sleep in the Car I know but you know uh then you we Have to wait in that that Li the the you Know in that um the waiting area you

Know forever and it takes forever well I'm in the wheelchair so I'm Fine well I know but it's such a pain to Get in and out and then in and out she Was like she was I'm going to see my son And you're taking Me she uh yeah so I I so she yeah she was uh she was Something else and and uh I would say You Know like if if I had to Say you know I don't think about all the Things I did to get out like I know you Know there's all these guys that are you Know like you know oh I wouldn't have Done that I'd have been a standup guy And I'd have been well good for You bro I wanted to get out I wanted out And The icing on the cake of me getting Out and I I would have cut every Motherfucker's head in that prison Off I was able to get Out just in time to Spend the Last year and a half of my mother's life With her I saw her two or three times a Week took her to dinner once a Week was able to W go on walks with her In her wheelchair I was sitting right Next to her when she had her final Stroke I held her Hand when she took her last

Breath so if I have to be called a Snitch the rest of my life I don't give A Like I I may not deserve more but she Deser More do you Regret so she just look back would you Do it would you do any part of your life Different oh I'd scrap all this yeah Yeah um yeah I'd scrap all this to be You know you always hear these guys say I wouldn't change it because it made me The man I am today the man I am today is The 54y old scumbag multiple felons starting My life over broke you Know living off of scraps you know Trying to make YouTube work like you Know I've Got you know two dead parents I'm Divorced I have a son that doesn't talk To me I have a son that doesn't talk to Me for good reason not because of a Misunderstanding because he understands Like I he's you can't even argue with Him he's got a powerful argument like I Don't want to be a part of this guy's Life he's a scumbag he stole money he Went on the Run he abandoned me when I Was you know three years old I don't Want anything to do with Him like I I get it like I you know and I tried To I tried to I've tried to do all the

Right things you know I wrote the Letters i i i pictures I've tried to Call and it's not happening Like I would do anything to go back and Just be that regular middle class guy With the two kids and the wife working a Regular job you know I I like that's a Good life you know those are that's a Good person and you know I I just made one arrogant decision After another after another until it Snowballed and I couldn't take it back And then I did everything I could and if And if I Wasn't the Calculating backstabbing scumbag that I can be I'd be in Prison right now so you Know so yeah yeah I would much rather be A CPA right now I would much rather you Know should have stuck with being an Insurance adjuster or something I mean You know I never should have Whited that 30-day L out never it was a mistake that Was your first mistake that was a huge Mistake you think your son will forgive You No unfortunately according to my my Ex-wife and my sister and everybody that He is a part of their lives you know and I've seen them you know my mother's Funeral I saw him you know I I've seen Him at several functions you look across And

He looks right through Me Uh I think that he's a everybody says He's a he's just like you he's just like You and everybody says I'm just like my Dad um I've never smoked a cigarette I've never drank alcohol not a drop Never done any Drugs because my dad dad was an Alcoholic and my dad smoked two packs a Day and everything in our house rre of Nicotine and I've never smoked and my Dad was a a pill head he was he was Always on some kind of prescription Medication he was drug you know and I Didn't want to I don't want to I didn't Want to be that person and like one day I drew a line in the sand and I wouldn't Do It and I think he's drawn A Line in the Sand and he's Decided you know this this is the hill I'm going to die on and I'm I'm not Going to back off it and and the thing Is my ex-wife tells him this he's a good Person you should be in his life his his Father cuz he was adopted when I was in Prison they adopted him uh Nick is his Uh you know his his dad uh Nick has told Him Nick came to see me when I was in Prison you know Nick has told him like Hey you this this is a mistake you're Making a mistake like everybody that Knows me knows him and he said he has

Said no so I fully believe it's no I Mean I hope it's not well I hope he Forgives you I think there's a lot of Good in you despite you calling yourself A scumbag over and over in this podcast I keep bothering you you mentioned that Earlier um what advice would you give to Young people given that you've lived Quite a non-standard life what advice Would you give them how to live a life They can be proud Of I I mean It's it's if I'm in a position that Anybody would listen to me but I I Because to me and I don't have any Advice that I don't think a father would Give you and it's like work hard be Appreciative I mean things are so good Out here I hear people complain all the Time and I think a huge part of just Being happy is being appreciative like I Didn't appreciate anything when I had This is so cliche but when I had all the Money in the World I was miserable but when I got out With nothing I was happier in prison With nothing than I was with2 or three Million prior to prison and driving Dating a chick I was never should have Been dating driving a sports car Vacationing all over the world Miserable I'm crying driving away from Prison because I already missed my Friends you you could have never told me

That was going to happen turns out money In fact does not buy happiness no and I Know and it it is such a cliche right But it's it's so true crying driving Away from prison yeah you know what um I Met my wife in the halfway House so she had just gotten out of Prison she was in the halfway house with Me she just did five years for like a Meth conspiracy I never would have met Her if I didn't G to prison you know and Now your uh date night is hunting Alligator together yeah we uh that was That was that was like a month or so ago This is Florida folks what this what This is what badass people do in Florida My my my wife hunting is a former she Used to so she was a milit an MP in the Military she was she did she hunted she Ran A hog hunting tour guide service for six Years yeah went to prison for five years Got out and then you know now she's a Marine Mechanic and yeah our date night the Other night was uh we went in the middle Of the night went to uh Lake okobe and Went hog I went alligator hunting yeah And if I may say so she's quite Beautiful so thank you and I did I did Nice she didn't want to date me in the Halfway house too I kept saying I feel Like you're sweet on me she's like I'm Not yeah I'm not I I make fun of guys

Like you you're a city boy I'm like I Don't know I feel like well you wore her Down that's just right EX what I did Yeah it's that Charisma it always works Well Matt thank you for for being so Honest thank you for being who you are I Do think there's a lot of good in you And thank you for telling your story and The story of others who have Uh who have made mistakes in their life Thank you for talking today I appreciate You having me on that was a really short Conversation thanks for listening to This conversation with Matthew Cox to Support this podcast please check out Our sponsors in the description and now Let me leave you with some words from Mario PUO author of the Godfa behind every successful Fortune There's a Crime thank you for listening and hope To see you next Time

Leave a Comment