Tal Wilkenfeld: Music, Guitar, Bass, Jeff Beck, Prince, and Leonard Cohen | Lex Fridman Podcast #408

I am standing on the edge of the cliff The entire night and if I you know mess Something up mess it up like what even Is a mistake but if I do like a little Clunker or whatever it is it's like so What I like I wouldn't have played half The stuff that I'm playing if I wasn't Constantly standing on the edge of the Cliff like wild why why are you stand on The edge of the cliff because at the Edge of the cliff is all Possibilities The following is a conversation with t Wilkenfeld a singer songwriter basist Guitarist and a true musician who has Recorded and performed with many Legendary artists including Jeff Beck Prince Eric lton Incubus Herby Hancock MC Jagger Jackson Brown Rod Stewart David Gilmore farel Hans Zimmer and many Many more this was a fun and fascinating Conversation this is Alex Freedman Podcast to support it please check out Our sponsors in the description and now Dear friends here's T Wilkenfeld there's a legendary video of You playing with Jeff Beck we're Actually watching it in the background Now so for people who don't know Jeff is One of the greatest guitarists ever uh So you're playing with him at the 2007 uh Crossroads Festival mhm and People should definitely watch that Video you were killing it on the on the

Bas look at that Face uh were you scared what was that Experience like were you nervous you Don't look nervous uh confident yeah I'm I wasn't nervous I I think that you can Get an adrenaline rush before a stage Which is natural but I think as soon as You bring fear to a band stand you're You're like limiting yourself you're Kind of like wooling yourself off from Everyone else if you're afraid like what Is there to be afraid of that you must Be afraid of making a mistake and Therefore you're coming at it as like a Perfectionist and you can't come at Music that way or it's not going to be As expansive and vulnerable and true so No I was excited and passionate And having the having the best time and Also you know the fact that he gave me This Solo the context of this performance is That this was a Guitar Festival it's one Of the biggest guitar festivals in the World cuz Eric Clapton's festival and There's like 400 guitarists that are all Playing like solos all night and we were Like towards the end of the night and I I could tell like Jeff like got like a Kick out of you know I'm I'm not going To solo on like one of my most Well-known songs C V's lovers well Stevie Wonder wrote it but people know Jeff for that song and his solo on it

Like I'm going to give it to my b player And like and he did and like that he's Like bowing like that that that like he Didn't have to do that but you really Stepped up There it just it just shows what a Generous musician he is and that's Evident in his playing across the board Is he is a generous loving open musician He's not there for himself he's there For the music and he thought well would Be the perfect musical thing to do um And it kind of all started like when I Went to audition for him uh which was an Interesting experience because I got I Got food Poisoning um on the plane and so like Literally when the plane landed I went Straight into an ambulance into um a Hospital overnight the manager picked me Up and I showed up at Jeff's door which Was like a three-hour drive like through Wind Country Roads and he answered the Door he's like okay you ready to play so We went upstairs and started like Rattling off the set and when it came to This song Co of's lovers he just said Solo And he he loved it and kept the Solo in It so that's kind of how cuz that there Was no bass solo before I was playing in His band so this whole thing was kind of New so even with food poisoning like you You could step up yeah that's just like

What Instinct it's just being able to Differentiate from like the body and From like expression music all right Yeah you know it's interesting you said Fear walls you off from the other Musicians and what are you afraid of You're afraid of making a mistake you Know uh bethoven said to play a wrong Note is insignificant to play without Passion is inexcusable yeah do you think Uh the old man had a point yeah Different styles of music invite uh Varying degrees Of Um I would say uncertainty or unsafety In in the way that people might perceive It so for instance like the tour that I Was just on like playing Almond Brothers Songs like I am standing on the edge of The cliff the entire night and if I you Know mess something up mess it up like What even is a mistake but if I do like A little clunker or whatever it is it's Like so what I like I wouldn't have Played half the stuff that I'm playing If I wasn't constantly standing on the Edge of the cliff like wild and So I don't care about those few little Things I care about the overall Expression and then there's other gigs That you know for instance if I got Called for like a pop or country session Or a Show the in those environments they may

Want you to play safe like just play the Pop pot and play it with a great Groove And time and great Dynamics and don't Really Veer away from the pot and stuff And and I've done plenty of those gigs Too it's just it's just a different like Hat you put on what do you get from the Veering from the veering off the beaten Path you just love it or is that going To make the the performance Better like why why why you stand at the Edge of the cliff because at the edge of The cliff is all Possibilities and unknown you don't know What's coming and I love being there in The Unknown it otherwise it's just like why Are we doing this am I am I just like a Clown on stage like showing you my Skills or what you know what I've Studied in my bedroom it's like no like I I want to be like pure expression Happening right now and responding in Real real time to everything that's Happening and anytime I'm not doing that It's like it's a waste of everybody's Time have you ever messed it up real Bad mess what Up I mean you know comedians bomb you're A big fan of Comedy yeah have you ever Bombed on stage Probably I think I think it's all about Recovery you know and the more times That you fall off the cliff yeah the

Quicker you know how to recover and um The the varying ways that you can Recover to to the point in which it's Concealed so much that maybe a listener Might not even know that you're Recovering and eventually you learned to Fly if we take that metaphor all the way Off the cliff you know you Lear all Right I remember one time when I was Really Young well not really young but like When I was 21 Or2 yeah exactly um but when I was first Playing with Jeff Beck and we played at what I consider The best the coolest jazz festival it's Montro Jazz and like miles played there Everyone play there and they have the Best speaker system ever I was excited For months and the drummer Vinnie was Like practicing for like eight hours in The bus on the way there and everyone Was like on fire on stage and I remember Playing a note just one note that I Really didn't like and I let it go in the moment on stage but As soon as I got off stage I was really Sad and so I sat like on this road case Everyone was out celebrating I like sat On this road case with a sad face Like and then Claude noobs like the Owner of the you know the whole festival Came up to me he's like dll what's wrong And I'm like I played a bad

Not such a child and like he he said all This wise stuff that you know Miles Davis has had imparted to him and like It fully cheered me up um he's like is There anything that would make you feel Better and I was like Caviar the dude came back 10 minutes Later with this huge thing oh wow it was A joke it was a joke but he actually Brought me cavat but anyway that's the That's the one time that I remember Being sad about a performance now I'm Just like okay whatever like it's done Was it a physical slip of like the Fingers or was it did you intend to play That note that I can't Remember I I I can't remember if it was Just a bad choice that I that sounded Like a clanger or why it happened it was So long ago but I I don't get depressed About that anymore that'd be funny if That was like your biggest and only Regret in life is that note and that Haunted you in your dreams and then like You know like I'm on my deathbed and Just everyone's just bringing me caviar Because of the one joke went way too far You you talked about Confidence somewhere I don't remember Where so I want to ask you about how Much confidence it takes to be up there You said something that Anthony Jackson Told you as encouragement a line that I Really like that quote on your worst day

You're still a bad [ __ ] that's actually a a Steve Gad quote and Steve used to tell that to Anthony because Anthony used to get real Depressed if he did a wrong thing or not Perfect thing and Steve Gad used to say This to Anthony Jackson and then Anthony Was my first base Mentor or just Mentor In general for people don't know he's a Legendary basis to a legendary basist And I I started playing the bass when I Was 17 and I moved to New York and I met Anthony and he started mentoring me bit In a very not typical way like he like Would just sit in his car with me for Hours and talk music and you guys just Listen to music and analyze it exactly Um and that was the best form of Learning I think just like well what do You perceive here and well I heard this And just discussing that um Jazz usually Or no old old styles of music and uh Yeah he told me that story about it on Your worst day because you know like Yeah even then like when I was like 18 19 I get sad sometimes about Performances like I could have done this It's like I don't do that anymore Thankfully or I'd be miserable so you Still you always kind of feel pretty Good yeah yeah now I Do now now it's just I I I sense the Body feeling fatigued especially if it's A very long show like the ones I just

Did with three hour shows and we did you Know one to three hour sound checks so That's a lot of physical activity every Day um so I just feel the body being Tired like fatigued the ears are Fatigued that's about it I don't really Reflect on the show much you're almost Like from a third person perspective Feel the body get tired and just accept It yeah I don't want to identify with it Because then I'm like then then I'm Tired but I'm not tired I'm usually like Energized it's like with the food Poisoning the mind is still yeah capable Of creative genius even if the body is Gone yeah something like that yeah so no Self-critical component to the way you See your performances anymore there is Uh there is critique but not in the way That it would diminish my sense of self It's different I can just kind of look At something and be like okay well Actually next time I'll I'll do this Choice and this Choice maybe maybe this Would serve the song better um maybe This would help uh the groove feel more Like this but it's not like I suck Because I did this and I'm a loser and Like you think that's bad cuz I even When I asked that question I had a Self-critical thought that why' you ask That question that's the wrong question I always have the self-critical enery in Writing is it necessarily A Bad Thing it

Depends if it's affecting you negatively What is negative anyway well if if it Brings your frequency down and you feel Less joyful inside unless you don't feel Like complete you feel less than less Worthy of something thing then you could Call that bad if you aspire to not feel That way yeah I aspire to not feel that Way in the big picture but in the little Picture like there's a pain is a little Pain is good that's fair so confidence You seem like in this performance you Seem confident you seem to be truly Walking the the bad [ __ ] way of Life I kind of a word that I prefer over Confidence is Trust Because I think with confidence is Almost Like there's there a belief assigned to It that I am this thing that you believe In whereas trust is just simply knowing That you can get up there and handle Whatever is going to come your way and It's it's it's more of an open feeling Where it's like yeah I could I could do This sure but not like I'm a bad [ __ ] like you know what I mean This there's a huge difference cuz I've Shared the stage with people who have a Lot of confidence and it can be like a Brick wall just like fear is a brick Wall so the brick wall is a bad thing Like the thing you have with Jeff here On stage is not a brick wall there's no

Wall this is chemistry yeah how can you Explain that chemistry that the two of You had trust and lack of fear yeah and Also I will say you know that uh each Individual has developed likes and Dislikes over their their lifetime and That can be like in this case we're just Talking aesthetic likes and dislikes so In this particular case obviously our Likes and dislikes are very much aligned Such that the things I do to compliment Him he enjoys and vice versa but it Could be two you know very trusting open Uh musicians on stage that don't have Walls up but their choices are very Different and one person likes heavy Metal and the other person likes Classical so it's it's got to be both so You guys were good at like yes anding Each other musically like definitely is That where you're Most at peace in a meditative way is on Stage um it used to be that it would Only be on stage it started with that That was almost like my way in to Flow State and meditation was playing music And then Uh back in the day when I'd kind of Crash after shows I wanted to change That I wanted to always feel like I'm in Flow State so have you succeeded I've Gotten a lot better I'm still obviously On the journey but yes so you meditate I Think you said somewhere that you

Meditate before shows or just in general I I meditate every day um when I'm on Tour with my band I ask that we all Meditate together for at least 20 Minutes and I don't dictate what which Type of meditation I don't put on a Guided meditation cuz everyone has their Own thing they want to do maybe someone Might be praying in their head it Doesn't matter it's just the idea that We all put our phones down and we all Are in one room connecting energetically Spiritually and just letting Our Lives Go for a second and and then we walk Straight on the stage and it's always Really connected and there were a couple Gigs where we ran out of time for that And I could tell there was a there was a Major difference in the Performance so it both connects you and Centers you all those things yeah but Then when I'm home like I love to Meditate and I've tried various styles Of meditation and studied Various types of things so I I don't do Just one thing I kind of customize it Depending on where I'm at in my life You and the world lost Jeff Beck a year Ago you told me you really miss him How's the pain of losing Jeff change you Maybe deepen your sense of the World you know it's hard to accept that We won't create Something musically again in this

Lifetime Um but in terms of the grief Grief was easier for me because I went Through a major grief period in 2016 uh and 17 and that was the first time I'd Really gone through the process of grief Uh in a in a like in a Nonam situation like with friends and Mentors and people that I'd created with Which is different it's a different kind Of connection um when my grandparents Died it's like there was nothing left Unsaid and I was at peace with what was Happening with this when Prince died out Of the blue um in mid uh 2016 and then Leonard Cohen died in November that just tore me to shreds Because Leonard Cohen was not just Someone that Profoundly inspired me you know Musically and lyrically but spiritually We had a very deep Connection um and that was the basis of A lot of our conversation was Spirituality and so at that time I felt Like a piece of me went Missing and that was a very long process Where I just stayed in my place and Didn't want to play a note of music I Kind of wanted to just get rid of all my Stuff so I I had a friend come over and He's like you should just once you come To The Comedy Store I'm like Comedy

Store like what am I going to go go to Some store and buy clown suits like what Are you talking about what's a comedy Store he's like no no no like The Comedy Store the place where like comedians go I'm like okay well I've I've never seen Standup I I don't you know I've seen Seinfeld on TV that's like the extent of My standup experience so he took me to The comedy Store and every single one of those Comedians like embraced me like I was Family it didn't even take a day I was Like part of the family and I made like 25 best Friends and I ended up throwing all my Stuff in storage and like finding a Little room to stay in where I rented my Gear out uh And that was me pay my rent paying was Me L loaning the gear because I didn't Want any any responsibilities Financial I just wanted to be Completely free so that I could like Just process it and not feel like I had To commit to anything workwise or Creatively I just wanted to unplug and So this was like a fun and very Different way to unplug because you know Previously I may have just gone to a Monastery and spent you know weeks at a Monasterial months but in this case I Was like you know what this is a Different kind of experience I'm going

To just hang out with Comedians and stay In this room and with no responsibility Really yeah other than to really deeply Connect with this grief that I'm Experiencing I'm not going to negate it I'm not I'm I'm going to really Fully connect to it and I did and it was Tough and then you know more more people In 20177 were leaving Greg Al and Tom Petty I mean it was like these are People that I I worked with all these People and like had great connections With them and they were all going and The world was mourning the loss of these People because of everything that they' They'd given to the world like they'd Changed the world's lives not just mine CU I knew them personally and so that Was also complicated and why for me it Was it was interesting to be grieving The loss of these musicians with Comedians and uh I learned a lot it Changed my life because I just learned To I learned to laugh at absolutely Anything everything I mean my grandpa Had a really great sense of humor too my Grandpa's a holocaust Survivor and like He could just kind of like laugh at Anything and like so I already kind of Have that in me but being around all These comedians just kind of like Exaggerated that for me and that really Changed things for me for the better so Then when Jeff Beck died it was like

Okay I've got these tools I know what This is and and I'm going to go through It again and I'm going to be on tour With Incubus in two days yeah and so Mike dur from Green Day he called me up he said hey like I Know you're going through a lot and I Said yeah I don't even know what I'm Going to play like I really want a Vintage Jazz base for this I only have a 70s one that I don't really think is Appropriate I really need a 60s one blah Blah blah and Mike's like I'm going to Hook you up he showed up to my place the Next day with a truckload of old PAB Bases and Jazz bases and brought them All into my studio and I'm playing them And then I pull one out of the case and It's it's Olympic White just like Jeff Beck And I play it and not only did I get Goosebumps and stuff started crying but I looked over at Mike and same thing was Happening and he's like uh I guess I Guess Jeff might might be happy about This and he's like well you know I Didn't want to let this one go I was Just trying to cheer you up a bit and Maybe loan it to you for the tour but if You really want It it's yours and I was like oh my God This is like like what a like Mike D is The nicest guy ever Um so so that happened so that bass's

Name is Jeff and it's a white Jazz base And I played it on the incubus tour but Yeah I do feel like I'm more equipped to Handle grief now tell me about The Comedy Store a little bit more do you Think um Comedians and musicians in some Deep fundamental way are made from the Same cloth like are they Spiritually connected somehow I think Everyone's connected In the same way so I think personality Wise um Comedians and musicians are Quite different actually oh in what Way well you you'd have to subdivide Even musicians into different categories Too because you know the thing that I Appreciate about comedians is that you Know you go to a restaurant with them And like all the observational humor of Like they'll just they'll notice Everything and make you laugh about it Which a really great great songwriter Does the same thing too and my favorite Lyricists like Leonard Cohen Bob Dylan Paul Simon they you know Warren zon they Add comedy into their lyric and like so Those types of people I would liken to Hanging out with a comedian it's very Different from like say somebody that is An instrumental guitarist or something Like that that they're they're more Focused on whether it's like a Kinesthetic thing or like a physical Thing or whatever it is they're not

They're not quite doing the Observational thing in the same way so I Just appreciate like my favorite thing To do is go out and laugh especially Because like I can tend to be pretty Analytical and be in my head um and so Anything that just kind of lets me be in My heart and just enjoy life I think There's a photo of you with de Chappelle On stage was that about so right after Leonard Cohen passed away The Comedy Store threw me a birthday party it was This crazy lineup and like it was like I'd play a song with my Band and um and then Jackson Brown sat In and like sung a song and then like Dave Chappelle came up and said some Jokes it was like it was like one of my Favorite nights ever yeah yeah it was Cool it was it was a very healing Birthday party yeah there's something Magical about that place yeah it's Really special yeah well the mothership Has some magic to it too it's really Cool it's different totally different Vibe but like super awesome you've said That uh Lena Cohen is uh a songwriting Inspiration of Yours I saw you perform his song Chelsea Hotel brilliantly on the Internet um it's about for people who Don't know his uh his love affair with Uh Janet Joplin How's that song make you feel great I

Love that song which aspect musically The Melancholy feeling the hopeful Feeling the the the cocky feeling all of It like every single line has a Different feeling to it really yeah but As a whole piece I I I appreciate it so Much I actually lived at the Chelsea Hotel and when when Leonard and I first Met that was one of the first things we Talked about was the you know I lived There where all that stuff went down Before they tore it apart and um yeah I It's just a beautiful song you know what Makes me sad the way it ends I don't Mean to suggest that I loved you the Best I can't keep track of each Fallen Robin I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel that's all I don't even think of You that often you know that line I Don't even think of you that often Always like breaks my heart for some Reason like how ephemeral how shortl Lasting like certain love affairs can be Just kind of like huh yeah do you think He meant it I always think he doesn't He's trying to convince himself of it it Could be both or either you know I mean That's the beautiful thing about poetry And lyric is that it's supposed to be Open yeah I wonder if it's also open to Him depending on the day you know Definitely I mean the thing that he Taught me um or his advice to me Was when you're writing a

Song look at it the next morning like Just first thing and read it and then Take a walk smoke a joint read it Again go have a fight with your you know Daughter come back read it again get Drunk read it again wait a week read it Again just so that you know from every State and every position that you the The Wider the lens is going to be from An audience perspective you want things To mean multiple Things uh so there's one line I read Somewhere that he regrets putting in the Song so I got to ask you about it's Pretty edgy it's about uh giving me head On the unmade bed yeah you think that's A good line or bad line it's an amazing Line it's one of the best lines in the Song yeah right when he put that song Out obviously he didn't regret it or he Wouldn't have put that lyric in the song I think what happened was that Eventually word got out either from him Or from somebody else that the song was About Janice Joplin yes and so at that Point he regretted the Indiscretion so it wasn't that he Regretted how great the line was it was Just you know the Privacy Factor but Then again Leonard's known for rewriting His lyrics and in his live shows you'll See a bunch of songs where it's like new Lyrics and he didn't do it because he Didn't like the old lyrics he just did

It Because he could because he's Leonard And it's like why not have fun with Words the way musicians have fun you Know improvising solos on stage and he Could have changed that line in Chelsea Hotel after in retrospect and he never Did I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel tell you were talking so brave and So sweet giving me head on the unmade Bed while The Limousines wait in the Street it's so powerful it's a powerful Line it just kind of shocks you well That's what's so so great about it m Yeah but also Heartbreaking cuz it doesn't last Especially actually to me it has more Meaning once you know it's Janice Joplin It's like okay these two stars kind of Collided for a time yeah but but what Why is it hot breaking could also be Just beautiful that they had a little Fling yeah everything is beautiful thank You even the dark stuff what's not Beautiful Everything Is Beautiful if you If you look long enough and deeply Enough well were we saying oh uh what do You think about Hallelujah like what What do you think about the different Different songs of his why' you choose Chy hotel to perform because I lived There and it was like it meant something To me to sing To sing that song and uh actually when I

Put that song out on YouTube that's when He sent me an email he's like hey do you Want to you want to come over and so This is how you guys connected no we met In a rehearsal Studio I ended up Watching their whole rehearsal and Sitting there next to roshi his like 105y old monk which was really great I Remember when I was like shaking his Hand like like so I like it was just me And roshi on the couch watching Leonard With his band mhm and he shaking hands And he grips my hand like this so like Doesn't let it go and he said he looked In my eyes he said where are you and I Said in the handshake he said Yes wow you passed the test passed the Roshi test and then what's funny was That the next thing that happened about Five minutes later was Leonard Cohen got Down on his knees and opened up a jar I'm not kidding you of caviar this is Not a callback well it is in a way a Deep a deep fundamental way he started Feeding the monk caviar yeah and that Healed my montro jazz festival sadness Forever the end do you think there's a Kind of like Weird like there's a sense of humor to It all somehow like like why does that Happen why why does that Happen why like why stuff like that Happens or that the the Jeff bass speaks To you why why do we need to know you

Believe in that stuff in what stuff that There's a rhyme to the whole thing Somehow like there a frequency to Which magical things of that nature can Happen um divided about that answer Because I think just things flowing I Don't necess I don't think anything's Kind of like planned out like uh through Time it's like an orchestra playing of Different experiences and circumstances That are somehow connected I think Everything's connected so yes but Predetermined means like I don't believe In the predetermined stuff necessarily I Which is different From whatever your your previous karma Is and karma is a whole other kind of Conversation I don't mean comma as in Like good comma bad Comma just comma Meaning the collection of things you Have acquired over this lifetime or Other lifetimes just whatever that Whatever that is is going to influence Your future MH so well you had a really Interesting trajectory through Life uh maybe I just read it that way Because I've had a lot of stuff happen To me that's like lucky feels lucky and Sometimes I wonder like huh like this is Weird it does feel like the universe Just kind of throws stuff at you with a Chuckle I don't know not you the Proverbial you one yeah you said you Sometimes watch Classic Movies to

Inspire your songwriting and you Mentioned watching taxi Driver I love that Movie and I think you mentioned that you Wrote a love song based on that movie so Travis ble for people don't know is uh a Taxi driver and uh he's deeply lonely What do you think about that kind of Loneliness I think that loneliness is a Product of feeling separate from the World and separate from others and that The less you experience that separation The less you'll feel Lonely how often have you felt lonely in This way separated from the rest of the World it's less and less every single Year cuz I work very hard at at it Feeling like a part of the world yeah Just meditating and studying scriptures And don't you think that I mean isn't There a fundamental loneliness The Human Experience just in what sense that all The struggles all the suffering you Experien is really experienced by you Alone is it maybe at the very bottom It's not it's kind of all the same stuff You didn't feel alone in 2016 2017 I felt like I lost a piece of Myself that I had given to somebody else And I feel like people feel that in Romantic um exchanges whether it's Long-term Shortterm you give a piece of yourself And then if that person dies or you

Break up with that person you feel like You've lost that piece of yourself which I feel like is very different experience Than if you just are opening yourself Rather than giving a piece of yourself You're just opening yourself to somebody Or Something so opening is fundamentally Not a lonely Experience no it's a loving experience And then losing a piece of Yourself can be yeah because you can't Really you can't lose a piece of Yourself if you Are the same self as every other the Self right right so if you see yourself As together with everybody then there's No losing yeah yeah yeah it's a Beautiful way to look at it you said That uh there's something healing about Being in an empty hotel room with no Attachments except your suitcase you Know a lot of people would talk about Hotel rooms Being a fundamentally lonely experience But you're saying it's it's healing it's Healing yeah cuz I just get to sit there And not worry about all this stuff that Like this these meaningless attachments I've got my suitcase with my Necessities Or my three suitcases Sometimes and Uh I can just sit there and meditate and Just be with myself and it's so awesome

And usually like you plan your touring For like you know you you you kind of Get the business aspect of things taken Care of in advance so you can kind of Just really be flowing day a day on a Tour and it's a great Feeling it's funny because this last Tour that I did we didn't have hotels Every night we had hotels maybe like Once a Week and I I hadn't done that before Usually it's I'm frequently in hotels so I didn't get that space that I'm really Used to getting you missed them I very Much missed it and had to be very Creative And I ended up like Going into the back Lounge when everyone Was asleep and like meditating back There or like before everyone work up um And I actually like joined there was Like an online Meditation Retreat that Was happening it was like 12 hours a day Of Silent meditations that happens once A year and I love this this particular Group of people and they knew I was on Tour so they're like just join when you Can and so I was on the tour doing The Meditation Retreat at the same time it Was so fun it was so fun because I was Like in the back Lounge the bus is like Moving around like this my laptop the Zoom is like and I'm just like sitting Like meditating it was like yeah this is

The [ __ ] silent so they they're all Connected through zoom and just doing Sil 12 12 hours a day yeah that's cool These particular Retreats that I started Doing it's not straight silent there are You know silent sits every hour for 50 Minutes And then there's some talks and like These people that I've been working with Are really cool because they're Integrating um spiral Dynamics into zen And it's like the coolest combination What's spiral Dynamics like Ken Wilbur Do you know Ken Wilbur integral theory Yes can you explain a little bit so he I Vaguely know of him because of kind of This notion That everything is one like everything Is integrated that every Field has truths and falsehoods and we Should integrate the Truths yeah it's hard to explain how it Applies to this type of meditation Because it's in the the guided parts of The meditation that this whole like Holonic theory is like brought in about Like transcending and including every Aspect of your Being um because he talks about like Levels of development and like it in Consciousness and how like this applies To like every single religion or Non-religion that there are these levels Of development and from all that go all

The way up to Enlightenment and no Matter what you start off with it could Be you know Christianity Buddhism Vidant Doesn't matter like anything then I just Like I like it when everything is and Everyone is taken into account it Doesn't matter where you're coming from That there is a way to to be Self-realized self-actualized there are Self-actualized beings from all walks of Life with very very different paths There's No One path I mean in this Particular Retreat I do there's like a Lot of Silent sits and then there's some Guided Meditations um but this I I've tried a Lot of different Avenues and they're all great so I Wouldn't just say just try this one Thing like I've studied like the Upanishads like with Vidant teaches and Like gone through those texts for months And months and stayed at monasteries and Like how they break it down makes total Sense to my mind and heart and like my More importantly than my mind like my Inner knowing like it resonates that's Inner knowing yeah because like your Mind is like the thinking tool like it's It's not not you you're not your mind You're not your thoughts you're not your Body you know so it's like just the you Like that knowing that you have that's Kind of when something resonates there

That's usually when you go with Something what was living in a monastery Like it's the best what is what are we Talking about like what it's just an Empty room with like a tiny single bed And a sheet and a pillow and that's it That's it you have to eat the same thing As everyone what's the food like what is It very plain cheap basic food which is You know funny for someone like me Because I'm I'm I'm pretty particular About my diet yeah you brought over like Like 20 different Ingredients yeah so what was the like Day in the life of tall at a Monastery you wake up at 5 a.m. to the Bell and you go and meditate like Constantly So till bedtime other than two Meals how are you sitting are you in a Group is there other people there and You're just sitting there well if you're Talking about the Zen Monastery because I stayed in Zen Monastery um and I did a thing with that Um the guy was telling you about that Kind of uh the integral Zen thing where He uses Ken wilber's work in combination With Zen that that's a little bit Different cuz he does talks we talk About things Um and that's very separate from the Monaster like the Vidant monasteries I've stayed at which there's very little

Meditation in in terms of sitting Silently we instead we are meditating on The scriptures like the upanishads and We're like diving into that what were The differences the takeaways from the Experiences the the two different the Integral one and The uh the meditating on the scriptures They're both Incredibly have been incredibly helpful To me because the Vidant Um anytime I go into my head about Something the the the answer is there Based on this Knowledge And with the Zen Monastery it's like you Just got to put your your butt in the Seat and sit and wait and maybe Something will maybe it won't but just Keep sitting and it's very disciplined And you go through a lot your body is Purging a lot There's there's a lot and you don't Necessarily have the answers as to what Is happening and so I think for somebody Like me I need both I need to be in a Place where there's complete uncertainty But complete discipline and just doing The regimented thing and then there's The me that feels very Satisfied from an analytical standpoint Understanding what's happening like what What is the gross and the subtle body

And the you know like I want to Understand these things about what it is To be a human so I I like them both Understand what it means to be a human So that like having that patience and Just sitting with yourself helps you do That Yes more so like the analysis pot oh so The an the actual okay got it but Sitting with yourself there's no better Education yeah of like facing every Demon and it's all going to come out and It's not going to be Pretty but then there's there's things That happen on the other side of it that Are so profound have you met most of Your Demons I've met the demons that have Come out oh there may be more who knows Yeah okay well to be Continued what uh since since I think I I I I heard you say that you wrote A Love Song after Taxi Driver what uh kind Of love songs do you write more Of broken so you're a songwriter first For people who don't know they might Think you're primarily a basis but You're they wrong so do you right mostly Brokenheart ones or like hopeful love Songs in love songs about to be in love Songs soon to fall in love songs Um well the last album I put out is Pretty self-explanatory as to what that Is um a lot of pain that one that was

Yeah some of it Was storytelling and some of it was real Experience and it's always like a Combination of of things like what I I Serve the song so sometimes you use your Own uh life experience to tell a song And sometimes you may watch a movie and Part of that script uh merges with your Own experience and that tells the right Story for the point you're trying to Make in the song so it's it varies from Song to song like in terms of how like What a biographical it is yeah I was at The end of the taxi driver when um What's her name Betsy because Travis Becomes a hero she tries to get with him And he rejects her also That was Powerful my favorite love songs are the Ones where you're not Sure it's about romantic love or love of God or love of life or just pure just Love like I was thinking like George Harrison writes songs like that like What is Life or like Bob Dylan song that George Harrison covered if not for you yeah Just grateful grateful for for his love Yeah right right that's kind of like Where what I'm experiencing now and so Who knows what'll end up coming out but Do you've been writing this kind of yeah I've been writing a little bit I don't Have like an intention of like putting

Something out in in in any particular Time frame but I'm just riding and Letting things flow MH and yeah I love There's like a bunch of like Leonard Cohen songs to too where you're like There's so many ways to interpret this Song and there's so many ways I just Love songs that don't aren't like so Like specifically about one thing MH you Know I I really love the song to play it To Listen to Wonderful Tonight by Eric Clapton and I thought it was pretty Straightforward yeah and then I had a Conversation with uh Eric Weinstein who's a mutual friend of ours And he told me it's not about what I Thought it's about oh yeah what did he Say Um it's a a more complicated story it's It's actually a man so wonderful Tonight is a story about a man being Just finding his wife beautiful and Appreciating it Throughout but he said it was actually a Man missing his wife he's Imagining uh that she's lost because of The decisions he's made in his life so It's pain he had a long beautiful Eric Quinin like explanation of why I love This have you and Eric played music no We just hung out and had very long Conversations about everything he's a Bit of a musician you know yeah okay you Picked up the guitar when you were 14

Let's go back and one interesting thing That just jumped out of me is you said You learned how to practice in your head Because you only had 30 minutes yeah Your parents would only let you practice For 30 minutes yeah I read somewhere the Call train did the same he was not the Practice part but he was able to play Instruments in his head MH as a way to Like think through different lines Different musical thoughts that kind of Stuff I just um maybe can you tell the Story of that yeah I just grew up in a Environment that was uh focused on Academia yeah and I fell in love with Guitar and really just wanted the Focus To be that um so my limit was 30 minutes A day for I don't even remember how many Times a week might have been every day Or five days a week whatever so your Parents didn't want you to play more Than that um no and so I just learned How to visualize the fretboard in my Head and I'd practice all day in my head It's kind of like you know the the The Queen's Gambit the TV show with Ana Taylor joy and she just like it on the Ceiling I used to do that with the Fretboard yeah just practice and I Actually recommend it to every musician Because if you're just practicing here Uh you don't know what is more dominant Necessarily is it this or is it your Motor skills if you just take that away

And do it here you know you've got it so I'm glad that that happened and that I Learned how to do that and in terms of Like learning Fast cuz like I had to like learn how to Well I had to try to absorb a lot of Information in a short amount of time When I did have the Instrument I kind of Would like do things in bursts like even In that half an hour I would just go Like play for a couple minutes and then I'd stop for like a minute and then I'd Do it again and I noticed there was like A huge difference between the first time And the second time whereas if I just Kept repeating stuff it would be like Much slower Well what did you do in the in that Minute just hang out just integrate like Yeah I just like my brain it's like my Brain was telling me like just chill out For a sec that's enough information let Me let me take a second to integrate That yeah that's what at least what it Felt like to me and the most hilarious Thing happened a couple months ago I Know you're friends with Andrew huberman So he put out some clip which was a part Of one of his podcasts about learning And he said that there was some research Done on learning fast and that if you Practice Something for you know a minute or so

And then you let your brain rest for 30 Seconds or a minute that in that 30 Seconds or a minute your brain does the Repetition 20 to 30 times faster and in Reverse and I was like whoa that's so Cool cuz that's what I used to do when I Was a kid like now there's science that Proves that which is really cool from You know for musicians to know that that That's a good way to practice Efficiently CU you know like some Musicians they're like practicing for Six seven eight hours a day I've never Done that I've never practiced more than An hour a day even now like I've just Just that's my technique and it works Are you uh also practicing in your head Sometimes now I'm not practicing as much I'm more always writing songs in my head So that's I like silence that's why I Love being in the empty hotel room and Being alone or you know songs come to me While I'm showering or walking around Doing the dishes or occasionally when I'm hanging out with friends or like Comedians and people just like say [ __ ] And I'll be like that's a cool line just Like jot it down my phone so it's not Always musical it's sometimes lyrical It's more lyrical than musical now Because it's like for me it's Like there's so much music in the world If I'm going to write a song I want I Want the song to be about something

Interesting and so yeah the words matter To me yeah and the right word Can can have so much power it's crazy Like we said Leonard Cohen and then They're often simple the really powerful Ones are simple and like you when you Mentioned Hallelujah you know he wrote Like 80 verses to Hallelujah before he Narrowed it down to like four and it Took him like 15 years to write that Song so some writers will do that like And then other writers just vomit it out And it's and it's Beautiful like I've heard that Bob Dylan Or joury Mitchell they're like they're Fast writers they just kind it kind of Comes out that makes me feel so good to Know Leonard Koh wrote so many verses of That like that that was uh that was so Deliberately crafted yeah extensively Rigorously Crafted he just would spend Months and years and constantly refining Refining you have songs like that for Yourself or you ref for many years it's Song dependent some just flow out and It's like oh there it is everything's There and then other songs it's like you Might have started it with music and There's some words that come out and Then trying to fill in the rest of the Words sometimes it can be like a square Pig in a round hole and other times it's Like oh no I can you know it it it

Depends sometimes it becomes like a math Problem and hopefully it doesn't cuz you Just want to say what's right for the Song and usually when you you know write It all together like the lyric and the Melody and the chords and everything's Kind of developing at once at least for The first draft that's very very helpful Mhm like sonheim used to write like that Just like he wouldn't move on until like He he would just go this way whereas for Me it's just like I'll just go with what Seems to be coming naturally and I'll Just let it be what it is and then you Come back and you say okay well what What what do I have to do to this now Like what's needed just to uh Linger on The learning Process um what would you recommend for Young musicians and how to get Good what are the different paths a Person can take to understand it deeply Enough to create something special I think first and foremost understanding Why you are playing music if it's Because you have something that you're Trying to express or that you're just in Love with expression itself with art Itself those are great Reasons Um to to start this journey the why Should be I think the why is really Important because it's a jagged Lifestyle and there's a lot in it and so

If you don't have your purpose if you're Not centered in your purpose then all That that Jagged lifestyle is probably Going to get to you Jagged it's Jag yeah It's Jagged it's it's all over the place It's uncertain it's one thing one moment And a completely different thing another Moment you never know what's going to Happen and if you thrive on variety Which I love variety um then it's it's Perfect but also every human being needs A certain amount of certainty in Structure and so it's the certainty can Come from your inner knowing knowing That you're doing exactly what you want To be doing and knowing what your Purpose is in in doing it in this Expression otherwise you're just kind of Like a leaf blowing in the Wind like in the early days touring just Playing clubs seems like tough yeah it's A lot yeah it's a lot of of like the Physical labor aspect of it is really Hard playing on stage to to two people Or 2,000 or 20,000 that doesn't make a Difference I mean it makes a difference To the ticket sales which informs how What level of uh luxury you might have On the road or not but other than that It's just people there listening to Music the music doesn't Change does it make it tougher when it's Two people versus 200 no so even if Nobody recognizes whatever the thing

You're doing no because the the idea is To be doing like having a great Conversation on Stage the audience can come and go yeah I mean I I always like at like there's Certain points in shows where I'm I'm Just like I consciously I'm like oh yes There's an audience over there cuz I'm So like wrapped up in whatever's Happening on stage you forget yourself Well maybe I'm remembering myself oh wow Damn DN call back somehow feels like One okay uh you think every instrument Is its own journey is you play guitar You play bass you sing just the the Mastery of an instrument or let's avoid The word Mastery the understanding of an Instrument is its own thing or they Somehow Like physical manifestations of the same Thing it's both you know like every Instrument has its strength Beauty Limitations range like possible range That can you know be extended to some Degree or another depending on who you Are like trumpet or something you know Like certain people can hit higher notes Than others blah blah blah but um that Being said we're all playing the same 12 Or 24 or however you divide the octave That many notes you know we're all Playing the same notes so in that sense It's all the same thing it's just music

Music or better yet it's just art or Expression but yeah every instrument has You know you got to go through the the Physical the physical aspect of it the Motor skills and all of that and Hopefully you get through that really Quickly so you can get to the Expression quickly because if you get Stuck in just that first phase that's be Really boring yeah but that's a that's a Pretty long phase the Technical the the the technical skill Required to Really play an instrument for some People it's a long thing and some people It's short it very very much varies it Might have to do with like how you Learn um and getting to know like your Strengths in learning like more oral or More like is it more like K like what's What's your strength and playing off of Those strengths so for me like it was Like like I was saying earlier it was Just an intuitive thing that I knew I Can feel when my brain is full like that It needs processing time and so I listen To that I don't push past it uh even if It's like one minute and I do something I'm like Okay silence and then I come back and it And and I trust that it's going to be There and it is there so just trusting Yourself I think is really important Trusting that you know you better than

Anybody else is going to know you so That's the kind of thing with with Teachers that can be either really Really helpful and great or really not Great like I'm primarily self-taught I've had amazing mentors of all walks of Life and I think I'm unbelievably Blessed that my mentors are some of my Favorite musicians on Earth whether it's Leonard Cohen or Jeff Beck or Wayne Shorter whoever these people are like They are my favorite musicians so not Everyone has that opportunity but what The opportunity that we have now that I Didn't have when I was starting is that Everything's on YouTube like every Interview with every genius like you you Don't need to necessarily have these People in person know I mean it and and Then I'll say to that yes and no I I Agree with myself and then I don't agree With myself and and the reason is I do Believe that there is something that Happens when you're in person with a Master um in some cases that there is Something transferred that is not Intellectual it's not spoken there Something else that happens that can Happen and that I've experienced and um I really value that and I think that Applies to specific disciplines and also Generally like I've been around Olympic Gold Medalists just to hang out with them for

Several days and there's something There's something about greatness There's a way about them that kind of uh Permeates the space around them you kind Of learn something from it even if you Don't practice that particular Discipline yeah there's something to it If you're if you're able to see it I Also like what you said about the Playing stuff in your Head that It forces you to not be um lost in the In the physical learning of the Instrument I think that's one of the Things I probably regret a little bit so I play Both piano and guitar and I've become Quite over the years technically Proficient at the instruments but I Think my mind is underdeveloped because Of That meaning like I can't really Like Um I can feel the music when it's Created but I can't create out of the Feeling I haven't practiced the U Project projecting the feeling onto the Music you know what I mean and I'm not Like a musician but I'm just it it's It's a different muscle that I think is If you really want to create beautiful Things you have To the creation happens here not with Your hand I think it's more here or what

Whichever it's some part of the body but It's not with your fingers yeah cuz I Think the fingers is more this sure and Then yes it's here yeah right and it's Just nice that you said that cuz it it Um it's probably really it's really good Advice if you want to create yeah Slowing down is really great too what do You mean slowing down slowing everything Down it could be you know I can play Something really fast but I may want to Like practice It yeah [Music] Like go slow as possible cuz there's all These micro movements And that are happening that if you just Go like you you can't pay as close Attention to the exact tone that you're Pulling from each note and there's a lot To pay attention to to how my fingers Are touching the string here like I can Change my tone A Million Ways just by The direction of this finger and same With how this lands and how hard I'm Attacking the string and with what Intention am I hitting the string Emotionally physically and so even if You can go BL play that so slow see how Locked into a pocket you can be see how You like feel every aspect of that CU Then when it gets sped up is still there With you mhm yeah that's brilliant it's Kind of like the transcended and

Included thing that Ken wber talks about Like it's like and I guess that's what Meditation can do for you is to like Really listen to your like observe every Aspect of your body the breath and all This here you're observing every element Like every Super detail element of Playing a single note yeah that's cool That if you speed it up it's still there With you it is I I yeah it is cuz I hear There are certain people like they play Really fast but I don't hear the Fullness of tone always and it's like Well it's probably because maybe they Didn't maybe it's because they didn't Slow it down and really sit with each Note and let it like resonate through Their whole being MH it's spiritual it's Like a spiritual expression it's not Just like you know it's not it's not a Sport a lot of people treat music like a Sport yeah since starting to learn more Like Steve vongh versus Jimmy Hendrick I I would spend a quite a long Time on single notes of just bending Just like just listening to what you can Do with bends bending just thinking like People like BB King and all these Blues Musicians like spend a career just Making a a single note cry yeah there's Like an art form to that yeah and I Think you putting it like taking it Really slow which I never really thought Of as really good idea like really slow

It down it's the same with like sitting With your own emotions it's like we when Emotions are overwhelming to us we get Real busy we move real fast because it's Like we don't want to feel our feelings And those are the moments to slow Yourself down and observe it anger Jealousy and just be with and just be With it be like be cool with it like Love it love the anger it's all Beautiful can you educate me on the Difference between bass bass and bass Okay well one is a fish at least I Pronounced it correctly that's Good uh it's all about the can you Pronounce my my name tall wow Most people say tow or tall you said Tall who says tall like so many people In the South maybe tall I don't know but The fact that You you get extra points tall I get I Didn't know this was a game am I winning Y I like Winning how do you play the bass uh What's the difference between finger Style and slap slap is like this finger Styles like this you ever ever played Bass with a pick yeah sometimes I'm not Accusing you of anything no accusation Taken I don't know if these are Sensitive topics like if that would be Pretty hilarious if I was sensitive About Bas techniques but like not about Like love it just looks so cool to like

Slap it and I don't understand what That's about like that thumb thing that Yeah I slap less um a lot less almost Never actually um it has a very Distinctive sound and does a very Distinctive thing to a song mhm that Um is not something I hear needed very Often in music today yeah um but in Certain Styles like Funk it sounds awesome and It makes sense it was something that was A bit overused at one Point um for instance like my mentor Anthony Jackson he refused to slap like He actually said if you want me to slap I'll leave this gig mhm so I'm not like That see that's why I said sensitive see I was like reading into it because he Was he's sensitive about I was feeling The spiritual energy of the sensitivity Of the Anthony Jackson and then I mean I'm playing electric bass so generally Speaking you don't particularly want to Hear electric bass on Straight Ahead Jazz anyway you want to hear an upright Bass But if I was to play jazz on Electric base I might even kind of like Palm palm mute you know like I instead Of going like I might Go to Very anything to kind of make the the Notes um shorter and less resonant and Like kind of Fade Away quick because the Upright does that naturally and I have

Like a different Basse like a hollow Body Harmony that sounds closer to an Upright that I'll use um in in certain Like on my song Under the Sun that I put Out that was on a Harmony base and it Has like kind of an upright acous stick Kind of tone to it but with more Sustain and uh is jazz fusion the the Style where you have like an electric Base can you add your C with again you Can you can have both you can have both On you can have either on anything There's no like real rules now I've Heard you say something interesting Which is uh well a lot of things you say Is interesting but just one thing just One that and it's what time you're Leaving what time was that again 3 Minutes that it's may be easier Sometimes to define a musical genre by The don'ts than the than the Dos the don'ts than the Do uh what are the don'ts of jazz and Rock what are the don'ts of jazz fusion What are the don'ts in any domain of Life what are the don'ts the don'ts is Just to to please leave your fear at the Door door mhm and your does is to be Open to Anything and open your ears like respond To what's happening Now I think that quote you're talking About might have been more about an an Individual musician's unique sound

Because everyone has their sound if They've developed their voice and They've listened to their own aesthetic Preference Of which everyone is slightly different Everyone has slightly different likes And dislikes um then you'll have a Unique sound on your instrument and your Unique sound is defined more by the Choices you make rather than I mean it's It's equally as defined by the choices You make and the choices you don't make I mean it's the it's the flip side of The same coin really yeah there's Certain musicans you can just tell it's Them just you hear a few notes and You're like okay it's them tone Sometimes it's tone sometimes it's the Way they put they play Rhythm yeah it Might that quote you're talking about Might have even had to do with someone's Like real limitations on an instrument That then that would define their sound As the things that they can't like Actually can't do versus like what You're choosing to do versus not Choosing to do which is that like flip Side of the same coin thing how many Fingers you play With it seems like a lot of the greatest Musicians aren't Technically like Perfect the the imperfections is the Thing that makes them unique and where a

Lot of the creativity comes from I mean Hrx Hendrick said a lot of those things The way he put like a thumb over the top Well his hands were huge there was no Other place for the thumb to go and it Was great that he could reach you know The the E string and that was an Advantage and he was a lefty playing a Right anded guitar yeah flipped I guess Yeah that's weird um that probably Doesn't have much of an effect maybe a Spiritual one I don't know well actually Flipping a guitar is is is different it Does you know bring out something Different in you because I've done it Like flipped in it's like oh wow yeah Really it's really different I remember Talking to my like osteopath about like You know because there's so much weight On this shoulder while I'm playing all The time and and they were saying like Well just after shows just literally Just turn it upside down and do the Exact same thing in the opposite way It'll like even out your body and I was Like it's good advice have you actually Tried it mhm okay all right I'll write That Down uh all right well do you know a guy Named Davey 504 I've heard of him I've Recently learned of him he's a YouTuber And a bass player he's amazing he Combines memes and also just these Brilliant bass compositions and says

Slap like a lot he's big into slapping That's that's how that's he's the one That kind of made me realize this is a Thing okay and he also said that you're One of the best if not the best basist In the world there was a bunch of his Fans that wrode in and he analyzed the Jeff Beck thing that we watched at Crossroads is one of the greatest solos Ever Bas solos ever so shout out to him What does that make you feel like you're The greatest of all time CH chocolate Cookies chocolate is that your favorite I like macadamia nut like if I if you Really want to get into it with like White chocolate yeah that's a rare one For people to say is the favorite Chocolate chip is just like easy you can Kind of get them anywhere yeah last Thing you want to be is easy in this World you want to be easy you said that I love rock and roll quote I love folk I Love jazz I love Indian classical music I really love all kinds of music as long As it's authentic and from the heart so When you play Rock versus Jazz you Played all kinds of music uh what's the Difference technically Musically spiritually for you well There's no spiritual difference okay all Right cross that off the list But Uh more musically yeah it's kind of like What was saying earlier it's like

Each Genre has its language of What makes it that Genre um and th that would be a good Thing to say it's defined by the you Know the dos and don'ts um because yeah It's Like I'm trying to Think basically put the song first and I Think of the song as the melody the Lyrics and then the Harmony and Obviously the groove so the song goes Before the genre in a sense each each Song is like its own thing they're both Things that are held in my mind it's Like okay genre and then song which is Comprised of those basic you know Elements Um and I tend to kind kind of prioritize Lyric because somebody is trying to Express something over music and so that Uh the lyric is very very Important and so then the choices come From there it's like okay within the Genre of X um this is the typical Language and then how do I best serve This this lyric and Then where else can I pull from that Might not be in these two bags that Would put a little twist on it mhm so Those are all the kinds of things I Might be thinking about um but I don't Like twists for the sake of twists Either I like twists

Because I want to hear something that Might be fresh MH but when someone does Something just to be hip it's annoying To me you I think you can hear the Difference it's like when people like They write in odd time signatures or Like they write all these riffs just Because they can just because they have The chops to do it or they know how to Play in 1116 and whatever but it's like But if it's not actually creating a Piece of music that's going to move Somebody then why are you doing it and So I think a lot of the questions I'm Asking myself when I'm approaching a Song are mainly Philosophical and Aesthetic so you like to stand in the Edge of the cliff not for the thrill of It but because that's where you find Something new yeah potentially yeah and It's thrilling but you're not doing it Just for the thrill I'm not doing it for The thrill it just happens to be Thrilling all right because you can Always reel it back In can you though yeah you can no you Can like do a totally like disciplined Like I can go into a session and okay my Favorite thing about going into a Session with with musicians that I adore Is that we don't hear the demo because If you hear a demo you're hearing what The producer or songwriter have already

Imagined that every instrument is Playing and then it's like well I've Already heard what you want now my mind Is part of my mind is focused on what I Already know you want what the Destination is going to be why did you Bring me in here I want to not hear it I Just want you to set at a piano and sing The song with the I want to hear the Chords and the lyric and or sit in Acoustic to play it and then let's all Go in the room and then take One MH I Would say 80% of the time take one has The most gold and there might be like a Mistake or two or someone forgot to go To the bsection and you might want to Like punch that in so that you're Hitting the right cord but all the magic Is in that take and then sometimes it Happens where it's like you go it's like We're rehearsing and take one 2 3 four And then you're like thinking about it Too much and then you go and you have a Dinner and you come back and the next Take one after dinner is the one like It's usually after there's some sort of A break that but but OB obviously There's exceptions to that rule Sometimes it take two and three yeah you Said uh you said that this is something That surprised you about recording with Prince is that he would just so much of It would be take one so quick it would Just move so quickly yeah well with that

Particular album that we made together It's called Welcome to America he called Me up and asked me he said I want to Make a band with you I'm like really Inspired by what you're doing with Jeff Beck I want to make a trio do you like The drum rolls of Jack T Janette was Like his first question to me I'm like Well yeah who doesn't who doesn't like Jack D Janette like one of the greatest Of all time and he's like well you know Uh sounds like because we had a Discussion about drummy sound sounds Like you're you're kind of particular About drummers so why don't you find us The drummer and I'll trust you to find The drummer you can audition some people Send me some recordings and maybe your Two favorites and I'll pick pick out of The two or something so I did that went On a journey found a couple guys he Picked the one we went in and Um he basically Just would be like okay so the a section Is going to go like this and then the B Section I think we're going to go to uh G and du and then the bridge I might go To be flat but maybe I'll hold off and Okay let's go one two three four and Then we recorded to tape there was no Punch he did not want me to punch Anything like it was like and there was One song called um same page different Book mhm and and he like talked through

It just like he did and then he had me Soloing between each phrase like little Fills like I I didn't know that that was Going to come up and that and he loved That he loved that to have me on the Edge of my seat mhm like falling off the Cliff that was my first like real like Falling off a cliff moment from somebody Else holding me at the edge of the cliff You know what I mean um now I just do it On my own because it's so it's so fun And makes sense it's it's the best thing For the music when you say punch the Tape is that that when you actually Record it like if you record to tape and There's like say like you hit a bum note Like to to punch in means to like fix That note like re-record over that one Little area and and punch that note in He didn't want that he like he's like All my favorite records just like Whatever happened happened that's that Moment in time let's make a new moment In time it's great nobody makes records Like that Anymore everyone wants to like you know Edit and edit and re-record and this and That and unfortunately with a lot of Music and I'm not saying all music cuz There's plenty of great music coming out But the there's the danger of it being Flat MH because every little Imperfection Is is digitally removed well that's one

Of the promising things about AI is Because it can be so perfect that the Thing will actually come back to and Value about music is the imperfections That humans can create yeah there'll be A greater valuation of imperfections Yeah I mean you can kind of program Imperfections too yeah sure that's That's also very sad but then you get Closer and closer to what it means to be Human and maybe there'll be AIS Among Us They'll be human flawed like the rest of Us mortal and silly at Times another big Sigh uh is it fair to say that you're Very melodic on bass like you there's um You make the bass sink more than people Normally do is that a compliment yes I Think so thank You moving on to the next question I Mean as by way of understanding it's Just there's there's something about the Way you play bass that just kind of Pulls you in the way when you listen to Somebody play a guitar like a guitar Solo the thing I love about Jeff Beck is That he played the guitar like a singer MH and I think that the way that Wayne Sher played his saxophone like a Singer and I think everyone every Musician aspires to just sound like a Singer do he make it sing let me ask you About just come back to Hendrick cuz you Said that you had three CDs Jimmy

Hendrick Herby Hancock and Rage Against The Machine first of all great Combination I'm a big rage fan it's so Funny cuz like when I listen to some of The music that I create like my solo Music I'm like I could see how this is a Combination of hubby Hancock rage Against the machine and Jimmy HRI like I I hear the influences funny Just from your musician perspective what What's interesting to you about what Really stands out to you about Hendrick I just would love to Hear like a real professional musician's Opinion of Hendrick I love that he is two voices Combined into one voice so it's like There is his voice on on the guitar and There is his his singing voice and there Is the combination of the two that make One Voice and of course the third element is His songwriting and all of this have Have this beautiful chemistry and all Work geniusly perfectly together and There's nothing like it and you know he He always beat himself up about being a Singer and like he didn't like his voice But it's like my favorite singers are The singers that don't sound like Singers Bob Dylan Bob Dylan you like Bob Dylan I love Bob Dylan you love his Voice too I love his voice can you Explain your that your love affair with

Bob Dylan's voice he's Express Expressing his lyrics There's it's just Pure expression exactly what he means I Feel everything that he's saying with 100% Authenticity yeah that's what I want to Hear from a singer I don't care how many Runs you can do and like I want to Believe what you're Saying l a cone is that M do countless like Neil Young I mean That there's so many musicians I love Elliot Smith for that Reason let me ask you about mentorship You said uh teachers and mentors you had Mentors what's a good Mentor for you Harsh or supportive supportive Supportive you seen Whiplash the movie So that guy somebody screaming at you Like kicking you off the cliff not Necessary I feel like anybody that's Truly passionate about something that They want to be gr out or a master of or This and that they've already got that Person inside their own head you you Don't need somebody else to do that for You I think you need love acceptance Guidance support Time Um advice if you ask for it just a space Just a nice open space all my mentors Were just that for me they didn't tell Me to do anything they they don't care Like because they're not they why do

They need to be invested in where I'm Going only I know where I'm going so for Some mentor to come and be like this is What you need to be doing and practice This it's like but why what if that's Not my path that might be your path so I'm not really again otherwise it feels Like a sport like who can run the Fastest race and it's like well okay Well I get that for that for sport maybe It makes sense to have someone a bit More hardcore but still like I would say Athletes have the same mentality they've Got they've got that in them already too Like so I think more like of a strategic Approach to mentorship works really well And mainly just Have having an open space and just being Available to Someone and kind of show that you they See the special in you and they give you The room to develop that special Whatever exactly cuz if you do have that Harsh critic inside you it's like it is Nice to have somebody that isn't like Your family or someone that's not Obligated any way that just sees your Talent and they're like yeah I dig what You're doing keep doing It yeah it's funny that that's not Always easy to come by do you have any Mentors yeah I've had a few recently but For most of my life people didn't Really you know I I'm very much like

That too like somebody to pet me on the Back and say like like see something in You of Value U yeah I didn't really have That so do you wish you did yeah yeah But maybe the wishing that I did is the Thing that made me who I am not having It the longing for that maybe that's the Thing that um helped me Develop a constant sense of longing Which I Think it's is a is a way of because I Have that engine in me it really allows Me to deeply appreciate every single Moment every single everything that's Given to me so like just a Eternal Gratitude so you never know which the Which are the bad part parts and the Good parts so if you remove one thing it Might Be it uh the whole thing might Collaps I suppose I'm grateful for the Whole Thing that one note you screwed up so Many years ago that might have been Essential what about because you do Jiujitsu yes so like do you are you I Don't my dad does my dad's super into it I love my dad he's the coolest um But no I don't do it he's a he's a blue Belt right now nice nice you ever been On the mat with him like not yet but I Plan on it you should do it what belt Are you black belt sick do you want to

Go on yeah right you got the shitalking Part of you just it down you have to do The the Technique um but like for that like for Instance like do You do you need a harsh Mentor or teach Teacher or yeah but you like you said it Really beautifully like there's a to to Me I agree there's a difference between Sport and art yeah they overlap there's You know for sure but there's something About sport where like Perfection is Actually like Perfection Perfection is Really the thing you really want to get To the technical Perfection with art it Feels like technical Perfection Is um is almost a way to get lost on the Path to wherever something unique so um But yeah with with sport I Definitely and one of the kind of Athletes that loves to have like a Dictatorial Coach yeah somebody that like helps me Really push myself to the Limit but You're the one that's kind of dictating How hard you're getting pushed in a way Like you're choosing your Mentor like That Whiplash video is like he didn't Ask for that you know in a way he might Have well maybe maybe subconsciously I Mean there is it's a movie So next you're going to tell me they're Just actors I Mean and but you know yeah how do we

Choose things you know you don't always Choose but you you kind of maybe Subconsciously Choose and and some of it like some of The great Olympic athletes I've Interacted with their parents for many Years would forc them to go to practice Until they discovered the beauty of the Thing that they were doing and then they Loved it yeah so like which point does Uh something that looks like abuse Become like a gift you know that's Weird it's all very weird but for You support and space to discover the Thing The Voice the music within you That's my personal choice because I'm Very familiar with the inner critic and I can bring her out at any point I don't Need help with that you know oh so you Do have she call she was on overdrive That's why now I'm I had to work on that So Much yeah you have a really happy way About you right now thanks the very Zen can I ask you about Bruce Springsteen yeah sure a lot of songs of His I listen to make me feel this Melancholy feeling it's not just Bruce Springsteen but Bruce does a Lot what is that about all songs that Arous a kind of sad feeling or longing Feeling or feeling what is that what is That about us humans on the receiving End of the

Music frequencies each frequency does Elicit a different kind of Emotional response that's that is real Scien you mean like on the physics Aspect yeah yeah physical level so there Is that um combined with the right kind Of lyric and the right kind of Melody of The right kind of cord will elicit the Very particular kind of emotion and it Is scientific it can be analyzed I don't Particularly want to analyze it because I don't want to approach things with That um in advance I don't want it to Inform where I'm going I I like the Feeling to Lead Me naturally to where I'm writing but yeah Um there's a real chemical element to That and then also like I was saying Like the lyric what it means to You which poetry is supposed to mean Something to everybody like different It's not supposed to mean one thing like You can't analyze and be like this is What this poet meant yeah and and like We were talking about with Leonard Earlier it's like the broader you can Leave a lyric the better you can appeal To people in so many different ways and Even to the songwriter like I'll sing Some of my songs from five years ago and I'll be like H I didn't even think that It could have mean meant that but I Guess it does that's funny I like just Giggle on stage suddenly a lyric will

Hit me differently from with from a Different new experience or something Have you ever cried listening to a song Of Course weep like a baby in a bathtub Which um who's a regular go-to then Leonard Leonard yeah Hallelujah is is a Song that makes consistently makes me Feel something it's holy his work is Holy and if you were in his Presence I Guess there was a lot to that to that Being what advice would you give to Young Folks on how to have a life that Can be proud Of just tackle the demons as early as Possible where whether it's through your Rod or through meditation or through Whatever it Means Diaries what whatever it is just Uh walk walk towards the things that are Scary because if you Don't they'll just expand they become Bigger if you avoid if you avoid the Demons they become Bigger what does that mean for you today Are you still missing Jeff I'll always Miss Jeff But I don't feel like a piece of me is Missing um and same with Leonard It's that I did give them a piece of Myself and maybe they gave me a piece of Them that I hold with me and I cherish But it doesn't feel like I'm less than

Or they're less than or anything's less Than Just you learn to appreciate the Impermanence of everything in Life um impermanence of everything Except for Consciousness I guess you Could say is the only thing that is Permanent So everything else you learn to Appreciate that impermanence because the Limited amount of of time it like in This particular body is it's enticing Kind of gives you like a time limit Which is cool I like that so you've come To accept your own yeah like it's cool That I'm like okay I got this amount of Maybe this amount of time who knows but Could end today but if I was yeah if I If I died today I'd be really happy with My life okay it's not like I'm like oh I Missed out on this and that so you Really want to make sure that every day Could be your last day and you're happy With that I've always lived that way Yeah I felt this way since I was in my Early 20s i' be like yeah I could die Today sure I don't want to die I have no Reason to die but if I did I know that I You know put my everything all my effort And all my passion and all my love into Whatever I've already done so if my Time's up then my time's Up what role does Love play in this Whole thing in The Human Condition well

Love is everything I mean if you define Love if you're talking about love as in Romantic love or paternal or maternal Love or if you're talking about love as In you know in the in an Eastern Tradition like Vidant for instance love Is consciousness love is everything That's the only permanent thing yeah or If you were to go come from a Zen or Like a Buddhist perspective they would Say nothingness like emptiness Is versus fullness well those guys are Really obsessed with of the whole Suffering Thing and letting go of it Yeah Well I was wondering if you would do me The honor of playing a Song do you want a suffering song or a Suffering Song I think I would love a suffering Song Cool do you want to sound check and make Sure I'm Not [Music] Sound Check one Two yeah it sounds really good this one D all right count me off Yeah I don't know how to count somebody Off where do I start at nine or three Two one yeah you got it one two one Two

I Call out to the Ocean my Tears fall into the Sea for the Vows that have been Broken across the dunes Of time Repeatedly like a Night in battered Armor I Lay My Sword upon the Ground cuz I can keep fighting these Same battles [Music] More has been lost than has been Found it's Hard to feel things Changing after All's been Said and [Music] Done we spare and our lives [Music] Rearranging Everything under the [Music] Sun I walk the same road to work each Monday every Step tears at my Heel I sleep not to Dream but to forget on Sunday the

Spoke just turning with the Weed it's Hard to feel than Changing after All been said and [Music] Done we Spare Our Lives [Music] Rearranging Under the Sun reaching for the sky feet buried in The Ground Looking for some way out of the circle Spin Around my eyes on the Horizon seeking out the Light but don't let me be lost Forever in the Night Cuz it's Hard to feel things Changing after All been Said and [Music] Done we Spend our lives [Music] Rearranging [Music] Everything under the Sun Under the [Music]

Sun you're amazing that was amazing tall Thank you so Much Try try turning it to 11 it's quite loud can you see if on the Headphones it's like distorting can you Play something no [Music] No you're such a Professional I I I should produce your Next record Please [Music] Love Don't rescue [Music] Me I've got nowhere better I want to Be I want to be held but not be Holden [Music] Standing my ground with one eye [Music] Open this Fight doesn't quite [Music] A Love I thought you were Afraid but but now I'm on the hook for All you've given Me doesn't matter what I say or think or Do you see what you see with the lens You're looking Through this Fight keeps me tied to the worst in me And it's killing Me killing

[Music] Me Love I'm losing in my Voice you led me to Believe I had a Choice but let's Pause retract our CLA you could take my side while I take [Music] Yours this Fight keeps me TI to the worst in Me and it's killing [Music] Me killing [Music] Me [Music] Love come rescue Me I've got Nowhere better I want to Be This Fight keeps me tied to the wor in Me and it's killing [Music] Me killing [Laughter] Me killing me [Music] Killing [Music] Me uh well there's nowhere else I'd Rather be right Now T thank you the for this thank you

For the private com you're amazing you Really are amazing and it was a pleasure To meet you and really a pleasure to Talk to you today do I get a private Concert now if you playing chess with Yourself we were out of time so we got To Go thanks for listening to this Conversation with tall Wilkenfeld to Support this podcast please check out Our sponsors in the description and now Let me leave you with some words from Maya Ang jelou music was my refuge I Could crawl into the spaces between the Notes and curl my back to Loneliness thank you for listening and Hope to see you next Time

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